Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

We need the following 3 teams to vote on this issue still

Valencia
Insects
and Mutts

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I think that maybe we should have had 3 categories here. I have voted to have rookies in the vet auction, however could go for a rookie auction if we can come up with which seems like a reasonable rookie salary cap. I am dead against having a rookie draft as don't think there is any fair way to do it.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I'm the exact opposite. I wouldn't want a rookie auction, because then you have to get funky with the salaries, the fact they won't match anything in years following, figure out if bonuses will apply, etc. I voted for a rookie draft in hopes it was random, so I guess we cancel each other out.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I don't care how we do it I just want the rookies to be seperate from the vets. Speaking of which what happens if we get a 6-6 vote? Is this a rules committee decision?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

My guess is that we discuss the topic some more and see if anyone's opinion changes (being convinced/"sold" on a point they hadn't thought about). Then another vote. I don't think it should be a rules committee thing. they are their to interpret the rules, not make them...

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I have to agree with LADude here. If we auction this year, then draft with set salaries in future years, this years rookie class will most likely not have equitable value compared to future classes. Bad way to start things off.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Agreed.:toast:

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Okay, I never thought I would do this but I really want a rookie draft. Since the issue seems to be the fairness of a draft order:

If it will swing a "no" vote to a "yes" (for a rookie draft) I would trade all of my picks for all their picks (if this move was advantegous for them) even if I ended up with pick 1 and they had pick 12. Any takers?

BTW, you need to somehow prove that your vote changed and can't just call this in later on!

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I'm torn at this point. I support a rookie draft - but not a serpentine style with predetermined salaries. Is it possible we could have one auction, including rookies, but allow for a certain number of rookies to be placed on the Taxi Squad?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I'm considering changing my vote to throwing the rookies in with the veterans if the league is going to be leaning towards a rookie auction draft if this passes. That to me is the worst possible scneario since it involves creating a new set of rules. Other than determining order, a serpentine draft fits in with the rule structure we'll be using going forward. An auction for rookies requires 300 additional posts to determine how the rookies are going to be handles, and who knows how many more votes (I know the non Frenzy guys love votes).

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I think the predetermined salaries are going to be there next year anyways so I am not as concerned with that issue. As for the order of the draft I have to be honest in 6 rounds with 12 picks each I think that there are 72 rookies that are worthy of being drafted whether they be active players in 2005 or developmental. In fact unless someone wanted to we could probably get 72 players picked without having to even take players taken after Day 1.

Like I said I will switch all six picks with anyone (if it works to their advantage) to ensure that we get this rookie draft in place for 2005.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

What we can do is to determine if we want the rookies to be separate (the vote at hand).

If it is determined to be separate, then we can argue and debate the advantages and disadvantages of rookie auction vs rookie draft. And, yes....we'd probably need another vote. But, if it's to make sure the system works, then I'm all for an extra vote.

I am still standing by the rookies being separate. but, majority rules. Too bad, I didn't vote against it, I'd take you up on your offer Freedom!

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I'd have to go with a no if it comes to auction as well. Not only the rules and figuring out the details, but the time would be longer than a draft. I am convinced a rookie draft is the best way to go. If we go with having them in with the auction, fine, but otherwise the draft seems ideal.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Heck, you already volunteered to take pick 1.12...

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

We held an initial draft last year that was a modified serpentine, and seemed to work well. It went 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12, 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, etc. That seemed to even things out and seems more fair than basic serpentine.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Under that format I still HEAVILY want the 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3 in a Rookie Draft.

The talent in a rookie draft isn't that deep (even an IDP one)... it just doesn't even out 4-5 rounds down the line.

I'm just majorly NOT in favor of an inequitable Rookie Draft... but we'll let the masses decide.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Okay, this does not seem to have progressed (probably b/c all of the Frnezy guys were bikcering/debating)! I doubt this will be the perfect solution but it keeps everyone with 6 picks and using the NFL's pick value calculator evens out the spread that so many seem to be concerned about.

In this case the average per team is 3746 and here are the individual values (assuming Team 1 has pick 1.1 and Team 12 has pick 1.12):

Team 1: 3945
Team 2: 3885
Team 3 :3930
Team 4: 3670
Team 5: 3620
Team 6: 3690
Team 7: 3650
Team 8: 3700
Team 9: 3755
Team 10: 3900
Team 11: 3612
Team 12: 3596

While team 12 is the lowest they are not that far off the average (only 150) and Team 1 remains the highest but they are only over by about 200. Also, in this scenario Team 12 has all six of their picks in the Top 50. While Team 1 get the valuable pick 1.1 and then has to wait awhile. There are plusses and minuses to each slot but no one has an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage.

Pick #-Team- Pick Value (as taken from the NFL pick value calculator)

1.01-Team 1-3000
1.02-Team 2-2600
1.03-Team 3-2200
1.04-Team 4-1800
1.05-Team 5-1700
1.06-Team 6-1600
1.07-Team 7-1500
1.08-Team 8-1400
1.09-Team 9-1350
1.10-Team 10-1300
1.11-Team 11-1250
1.12-Team 12-1200
2.01-Team 12-900
2.02-Team 11-875
2.03-Team 10-850
2.04-Team 9-800
2.05-Team 8-780
2.06-Team 7-740
2.07-Team 6-720
2.08-Team 5-700
2.09-Team 4-680
2.10-Team 3-660
2.11-Team 7-640
2.12-Team 10-580
3.01-Team 12-560
3.02-Team 11-550
3.03-Team 10-540
3.04-Team 9-530
3.05-Team 8-520
3.06-Team 2-510
3.07-Team 6-500
3.08-Team 5-490
3.09-Team 4-480
3.10-Team 3-470
3.11-Team 9-460
3.12-Team 8-400
4.01-Team 12-390
4.02-Team 11-380
4.03-Team 10-370
4.04-Team 9-360
4.05-Team 8-350
4.06-Team 7-340
4.07-Team 6-330
4.08-Team 5-320
4.09-Team 4-310
4.10-Team 6-300
4.11-Team 11-292
4.12-Team 12-276
5.01-Team 12-270
5.02-Team 11-265
5.03-Team 10-260
5.04-Team 9-255
5.05-Team 8-250
5.06-Team 7-245
5.07-Team 6-240
5.08-Team 5-235
5.09-Team 4-230
5.10-Team 3-225
5.11-Team 2-220
5.12-Team 1-215
6.01-Team 3-210
6.02-Team 2-205
6.03-Team 1-200
6.04-Team 1-195
6.05-Team 2-190
6.06-Team 7-185
6.07-Team 1-180
6.08-Team 5-175
6.09-Team 4-170
6.10-Team 3-165
6.11-Team 2-160
6.12-Team 1-155

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Matt,

The problem here is you're trying to equate the 1st 6 rounds of a vet draft as equivelant to the 1st 6 rounds of a rookie draft. It's not even close. Rookie Draft's are much top heavier.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Not sure I follow. This is the NFL pick values (for rookie drafts) the first pick is worth 3,000 and pick 1.12 is 1,200. That seems pretty heavily weighted to me (since pick 1.12 is worth only 30% of pick 1.1).

I tried to post the values associated with each pick on the line with the pick so everyone could see the numbers that I used (again this off of something I found on a draft site a year or two ago).

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

NFL pick value? I'd love to see a link. And who determines such standard pick value for rookie drafts which have inherently different values from one year to the next?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I don't have a link, but I've heard of that before.

Let us know where it is, Matt

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

How do you attach a word file? That was how I saved it.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

If you use the Post Reply button, instead of the Quick Reply feature, there is a series of Advanced options underneath the main message box.

One of those is to add Attachments. Click on the Manage Attachments box and a popup will come up giving you the option to browse your PC and upload a file as part of your post.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Here is my first attempt to add an attachment.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Is this the same thing as the chart the Cowboys made famous while Jimmy Johnson was still there? If it is, it is a chart the Cowboys created (and every team has copied since then, at least that's my understanding) where they did a historical analysis of draft trades, and what each pick has been worth. That was my recollection. I believe it was based on trades, and not actual players values. Thus, when someone came with the Cowboys with a trade offer of their 2nd and 3rd for the Cowboys 1st, they just looked at the chart, added up the value, and it told them if it was a good deal.

Again, this is just going off my memory of watching the draft 10 years ago.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

What doesn't your chart follow the same straight line degression of values that the NFL chart does? Shouldn't the 2.1 have the same value of the NFL's 1.13?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Interesting chart and all, but pretty much useless IMO since there is no explanation of the thought process and analysis they used to determine the values, or when it was made.

I tried to go to their website http://www.footballcorner.bizland.com/ and gotten a Forbidden Page message. I've never heard of the site.

Heck I could make up a chart with numbers for every pick, and it would hold just as little value as the current document you presented does.

Without analysis to back up the data the chart has no value IMO.

I'll also note that curiously they point out that "This value chart was not obtained from any NFL team."

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

they probably added that last part so they don't get sued.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

LOL, like that would actually protect anyone in a suit... not a chance!

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Again, I can't vouch for it other than saying that I found it a couple of years ago and it seemed to make sense to me. If you want to create a different set of values that more appropriately reflects your view of the values that is fine by me. I was just trying to use something to mitigate what seemed to be concerns about the random draft order.

Using the chart (for what it is worth to even each teams value) here is each teams picks:

Team 1: 3945
1.01-3000
5.12-215
6.03-200
6.04-195
6.07-180
6.12-155

Team 2: 3885
1.02-2600
3.06-510
5.11-220
6.02-205
6.05-190
6.11-160

Team 3 :3930
1.03-2200
2.10-660
3.10-470
5.10-225
6.01-210
6.10-165

Team 4: 3670
1.04-1800
2.09-680
3.09-480
4.09-310
5.09-230
6.09-170

Team 5: 3620
1.05-1700
2.08-700
3.08-490
4.08-320
5.08-235
6.08-175

Team 6: 3690
1.06-1600
2.07-720
3.07-500
4.07-330
4.10-300
5.07-240

Team 7: 3650
1.07-1500
2.06-740
2.11-640
4.06-340
5.06-245
6.06-185

Team 8: 3700
1.08-1400
2.05-780
3.05-520
3.12-400
4.05-350
5.05-250

Team 9: 3755
1.09-1350
2.04-800
3.04-530
3.11-460
4.04-360
5.04-255

Team 10: 3900
1.10-1300
2.03-850
2.12-580
3.03-540
4.03-370
5.03-260

Team 11: 3612
1.11-1250
2.02-875
3.02-550
4.02-380
4.11-292
5.02-265

Team 12: 3596
1.12-1200
2.01-900
3.01-560
4.01-390
4.12-276
5.01-270

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I agree with Matt that the fairest way (if there is a fair way) to do a rookie draft this year is 1-12 in the first round and 12-1 in every round after ... Mike is right that rookie drafts are even more top heavy than vet drafts.

Matt, if we use this format I will change my vote to having a separate rookie draft and take you up on your offer of choosing between our two spots :)

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

FYI, Mattis isn't proposing 1-12 then 12-1 12-1 12-1 12-1 12-1

He' proposing a scale that changes with each successive round to some degree.

Brian proposed what your thinking much earlier in the thread.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Ahh, you are right, I missed that. Looking at it more closely I like Matt's scale even better as it detracts even more from the top few picks ... I would go with this solution.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Okay, if keepers swings to the rookie vote side with the modified draft order (he can have the better of our picks). Thanks!!

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Done ... I am officially in the camp of having a separate rookie draft if we go with Matt's format. I don't know that there is exactly a better pick in this format, just a preference.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I edited the poll to reflect your "change of heart" *cough*BRIBE*cough* ;)

You're still short a vote for the measure to pass... and I'm not so certain a simple majority should win out on this... but whatever at this point lol.

Keepers, I had no idea you could be bought so cheaply... I'll keep that in mind ;).

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Again Matt, can you explain how you selected the values from the chart? Why doesn't our 2.1 pick match the charts 1.13? You have it matching the 1.18. I'm just trying to understand how you determined the relative values, or was this a mistake?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I've lost track, do we have a number of people who are abstaining from voting on this issue? I also don't think a simple majority should prevail in this. We really need to come to a consensus of some sort. Of the (sort of) majority who want a seperate rookie draft, there are three different proposals, and some of those in the majority only want a rookie draft if their prefered method is used. I think we are far from resolution here, personally.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

LOL. I like the idea of having a separate rookie whatever but didn't think there was a fair way to do a draft so voted to having rookies included in with the Vets. However, I like Matt's format and think it should be relatively fair so I was teetering on the edge of which way to go ... Matt's offer pushed me over.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Dang, man. Don't you work. The other chart as well. I hope you're cutting and pasting all this!

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Swords, Skippy and Myself are in the against column (Kepeprs is being a switch hitter (watch your backside folks ;))

Valencia, Mutts, and Insects have not voted... Mutts seem on the fence

The rest are in favor of some kind of rookie draft or auction (some against auction) depending on the fairness of what can be worked out.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Brian- I think I figured out what happened I had laid this out in Excel last year to use with our Frenzy draft. When we added the compensatory picks (I think there were 5 first rounders) I am guessing I did not reorder (add back those 5 values) it right. Let me do that to see if there are any material changes.

Lots of cutting and pasting going on!!

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I have been a friend to Matt for years, so this in no way reflects on him (just his idea). But if we are going to go with a system where the numbers on slot 1 have the first pick and then not another for 5 rounds, I don't care what the Preds say, I do not want that first pick, that is WAY too bizarre. :retard

At most, I think the best way would be 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12, 1-12 (something to that effect). Otherwise you are getting way to involved in the value of these picks and predetermining value, etc. Too much thought and the soup will get spoiled and this will be getting off on the wrong foot.

I really want to staff a DS using rookies year one, so let's keep it simple if we are going to do it. Can we "bother" the teams that have not yet voted. I saw some of them came on line yesterday (at least) without voting. We might just be wasting our time with all this talk if they vote for the "All vets option."

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

He just doens't work... ;)

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

After looking at Brian’s post I updated the Excel sheet to show the right values. In this case the average per team is 4313 and here are the individual values (assuming Team 1 has pick 1.1 and Team 12 has pick 1.12) which are shockingly well distributed around that average:

Team 1: 4370
Team 2: 4250
Team 3: 4346
Team 4: 4255
Team 5: 4210
Team 6: 4295
Team 7: 4320
Team 8: 4340
Team 9: 4310
Team 10: 4332
Team 11: 4350
Team 12: 4380

Using the chart (for what it is worth to even each teams value) here is each teams picks:

Team 1: 4370
1.01-3000
5.03-380
6.03-265
6.04-260
6.07-245
6.12-220

Team 2: 4250
1.02-2600
3.06-600
5.11-300
6.02-270
6.05-255
6.11-225

Team 3 :4346
1.03-2200
2.10-780
3.10-550
5.10-310
6.01-276
6.10-230

Team 4: 4255
1.04-1800
2.09-800
3.03-660
4.09-440
5.09-320
6.09-235

Team 5: 4210
1.05-1700
2.08-850
3.04-640
4.08-450
5.08-330
6.08-240

Team 6: 4295
1.06-1600
2.07-875
3.07-590
4.07-460
4.10-430
5.07-340

Team 7: 4320
1.07-1500
2.06-900
2.11-740
3.08-580
5.06-350
6.06-250

Team 8: 4340
1.08-1400
2.05-950
3.05-620
3.12-530
4.05-480
5.05-360

Team 9: 4310
1.09-1350
2.04-1000
3.09-560
3.11-540
4.04-490
5.04-370

Team 10: 4332
1.10-1300
2.03-1050
2.12-720
4.03-500
4.06-470
5.12-292

Team 11: 4350
1.11-1250
2.02-1100
3.02-680
4.02-510
4.11-420
5.02-390

Team 12: 4380
1.12-1200
2.01-1150
3.01-700
4.01-520
4.12-410
5.01-400

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I like the effort, but I just can't agree with the results. Just look at the 1st 3 picks. Lets assume the top 3 backs go to relatively similar situations. All could most likely be the top three picks, and have similar value. Whoever picks first doesn't get to pick again until the 5th. Whoever picks second gets to pick again in round three AND the 5th. And whoever gets the 3rd pick gets a 2nd, 3rd and 5th round pick. I just don't think there is that much difference (there is a difference) in the first three picks. Is there anyone (even Mike) that would rather have the 1st in this situation rather than the 2nd and/or 3rd pick?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Exactly, there's no way I would want one of those first three picks in this scenario. Ever. There is so much more strategy in rookies than having the first pick. Why assume you want a RB with the first three picks (as most seem to do). I know the common strategies, but this is going too far. I do not understand what the problem with a random generator would be. It is as fair as any other way of drafting. If you are picking 12th, granted you will probably not a get a starter (and you might with IDP's), but using your head you could get 2 players (pick 12 and 13) that will be stars in the NFL.

Any word on the outstanding votes?!? I am repeating myself, but we are arguing moot points if they go for the vet route.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I don't care what order we go with as long as there is a rookie draft. If people are more comfortable with 1-12 and then 12-1 the rest of the way or some other variation that is fine by me.

I was just trying to get as close to equal for all 12 teams as possible. Clearly some folks would prefer a certain slot over another and I assume that would be the same no matter what order we settle on.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Noble of you. I appreciate the effort. I think we get closest to fair with the 1-12, 12-1 method.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Seems like most people are for a seperate rookie draft.

Assuming we go with a 1-12,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1 format that would be OK with me.

I am guessing we will use a random draft order of someform. I am not sure I approve of keepers getting the best of two spots...kind of shady to me.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

'ppreciate all the work.
Face it, it doesn't matter what you say, you will not change Preds' mind. Don't waste your time. Just like there is no chance he will change yours.
I say, it's not the "fairest" but if rookie separation is picked, I say either standard serpentine or the adapted 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 12-1, etc. This way, those who feel #1,2&3 get SO much better picks, they don't get as good a depth. I think that's good.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

It could have been yours, Skippy, but you didn't speak up. I'm surprised, too, with you always looking for the best angle :D .

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Does this mean you are requesting Preds to change your vote over, so we can end this constant drivel of a debate...

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Can't see how it would be shady since it was offered to anyone who voted "no" in an open forum..

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Ah, the crux of the problem. Hopefully, whatever method is selected, and whatever spot people get assigned, people will be able to trade to a spot they are satisfied with.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Looks like we added another voter meaning that we have 2 outstanding votes to be cast (unless one side can swing someone over):

If this counts then maybe we can move on to the random order generation. If not, I agree that we are just tilting windmills at this point.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

waiting to hear back from Skippy.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Speaking of ending it, I am new at this, is there a way we can we "prompt" Vaencia and Insects to vote?!?

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

My vote is currently one of the ones against it.

I will swing it over to wrap things up.

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

:thankyou :clap :thumbsup :IconDrink :drink :notworthy :toast: :drinktoge :bow yeah!