IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

low for me, high for everyone else...
(do you think they'll buy it?)

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Also, if we are adding rounds do we need to modify the existing bonus structure and caps for offensive players (not refering to Ramirez).

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cold man, that's cut me deep, Shrek...I mean Skippy

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Definitely needs to be reworked. I think this should be a project for after the first season when we have a better idea of market values.

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I would think we have a couple of options here. Since we really need to revamp the rookies salaries (not sure about the offensive player incentives) across the board for the extra rounds. One would be to get the cap number set and keep the 1.1 picks in portion to that total and work our way back down in the same increments. This seems to make the most sense. I would also think we could try and peg the defensive positions to their most similar offensive position (ie LB's have the same numbers as RB's).

Also, I would really like to do a rookie draft this year (as opposed to having them included in the auction. With that in mind (and since we don't have past records to determine the order) maybe we could go serpentine and pick a new order every two rounds (making sure that no one gets the first pick more than once). I know this would add some extra work developing the orders but since we have time I think something like this could be done.

Actaully the time thing might deserve it's own thread but maybe we should start to layout some time frames for the voting (rules finalization), auction starting/stopping and then rookie draft (if approved).

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Freedoms got some good points.

I think those who have recently played in IDP leagues should pull up their old stats (sharing would be appreciated) and compare. Where do the top ranked players on D rank compared to QB, RB, WR or TE (I hope no one scored like a kicker!). Then, if DL rank about like TEs, we set their cap the same as TE, etc. This is a good idea. I'm game for it.

Second point, the serpentine rookie draft this year is a good idea since there really isn't any order to rankings. (whoever gets lucky on the picking a name out of the hat would get advantage over person 12). Serpentine gives last person a chance.

I'm up for both of these. Anyone else have any ideas.

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Matt, so you think we need to increase the rookie salaries at the same percentage that we are increasing the cap? Part of the cap increase is to accomodate the added roster spots, so while I think if we settle at 17500 for the new cap, some increase is in order, I don't think it should be the full 60% or so increase.

I also would like to do a rookie draft this year, if we can find a fair way to do it. I don't think a plain old serpentine gets the job done though. Rookie drafts are way too top heavy, although maybe with IDPs the first couple of rounds are a little deeper. If it was offense only, my suggestion would be to randomize the first round, the second round is a serpentine of the first, and each following round is the same order as the second round. Thus, whoever gets the first overall pick (in a great draft this year) selects last in every other round. Now, with defensive players, maybe it's not that unbalances, but I'm not sure.

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I really, really think we should include the rooks in the auction this year.

As for changing salaries and bonus structure for the offensive players... I think we could just reduce the sliding scale by 33% to accomodate the 2 extra rounds of drafting. I don't think there's a need to adjust the bonus structure for offense at all.

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I guess my request would be that if rookies are included in the auction that they at least be able to placed on the DS/Taxi (whatever) with the same restrictions (3 years pro experience and then ineligible) as we would have from a draft. The only downside (not that it would not catch up to people) could be an inflation of rookie salaries because they would not count right away against the cap.

Though I would still prefer a draft if we could at least consider the above I would be happy. Thanks!

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There's just no fair way IMO to have a rookie draft the 1st year.

1. We don't have any type of historical reference for IDP players
2. There is no way to fairly rank a draft order... Rookie Drafts are way top heavy, and even with the IDP's, rarely does an IDP hit the top 7-8 picks.
3. I just don't get the hurry. We made mistakes in year 1 of the Frenzy not doing it all by auction, I don't think we should make the same ones here. I think we should develop a plan for the Taxi Squad and Practice Squads which will kick in year 2. We'll have records to go by at that point, as well as some data on the IDP salaries.

I just don't see why it's so important to get the Taxi Squad and Practice Squads filled year 1, when we have no fair method of establishing positioning for a draft. A draft that would impact the league for 3-5 years I might add. An all out auction year 1 is the only way to go IMO... but hey, majority will rule.

As for allowing auctioned rooks onto the TS and PS squads, I think you'd be creating an administrative nightmare since they would not be following the same scale and bonus structure as drafted rooks. If the rooks are included in with the vets then I think you'll see them sell at market value now, making the bonus structure less relavent.

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Mike, you've convinced me.

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nice arguement. I can see doing auction for all in year 1 and making changes as needed in off-season before year 2.

I'll go with Mike's comments above

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sounds good to me.

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sounds good

skippy....maybe if you undergo eye surgery to repair that second eye, you'll be able to compete in the Central...until then plan to be blind-sided by my LBs.

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I agree with Mike here as well. Let market forces establish first year salaries for everyone and go from there.

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:thumbsup I also agree.

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counting the last posts, we have seven in agreement. That puts this issue to rest. Next topic to vote on....

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

Still would have rather had a draft. Looks like that is out, so why can't we use our DS/Taxi Squad? The problem the Frenzy had was that we pegged salaries to projected numbers from the FBG's. That made sense at the time but way undervalued rookies whose numbers were not projected to be that high.

I think we could still figure out a way to allow us to take flyers (ie what we would normally do in the draft) on young guys that don't deserve to be active but are still worth being selected (bid on).

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The rooks are going to sell at whatever the market will bear. They don't belong on TS or PS as aresult IMO. They'll be no different then a vet that sells at auction. Bid accordingly IMO.

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I understand the valuation part of it and understand where you are coming from but still will vote nay (not that it matters since a majority has already been reached).

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I understand where Matt is coming from. I agree that it would be nice to be able to begin player development from the get-go. Is there any reason why we can't just extend the initial auction to include our D/S slots, allow for a specific number of rookies to be sent to the D/S immediately? I'm not exactly sure how I feel about it, but it might enhance hope for the future for those of us just getting our feet wet in IDP.

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My biggest concern for expanding the auction to the PS and TS would be the record keeping issues, the bonuses paid down the line, etc. In reality, I think it would be easy enough to note on the roster app that they aren't truly rookie contracts and therefor not elligible for bonuses, but I'm not about to start sticking my nose into roster app issues.

I would also have concerns of what seemed to happen the first year of the Frenzy, of some teams totally playing for the future the first year, and others playing for the present. If we skip the draft, and TS the first year, everyone will be working for the same goal of winning this year (at least initially).

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Okay, here is a thought. Why not have a seperate rookie auction. That way we all have the same money and the market can set the values. If you blow it all on one guy than you still need to make room for them on your active roster.

I think this is the sort of compromise that could work.

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Anyone have any input on this idea? I think its worth looking into. There seemed to be initial interest in a rookie draft before we determined there was no fair way to determine draft position. Holding a first year auction for rookies isn't a bad idea IMO.

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I htought about this earlier but didn't see it helping the situation at all.

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We had a seperate rookie auction in the CDL with a smaller cap. Personally I didn't think it worked. IMO, I just don't get why we don't include the rooks in the regular auction. If you want to blow 50% of your cap on rooks go for it, if you think you can land a diamond cheap, be my guest.

Why is there a need to seperate out the rookies year 1? Seriously? I know people would love to start filling the TS and PS's, but we'll be able to do that year 2.

Am I that far off base on this one?

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I think rookie draft/auction would be ideal IF we could get ways of valuing and fair order. However, since we seem to be running short on ideas on how to remedy this, I tend to lean towards what Preds is saying: If you want to drop 10% of your salary cap on Braylon Edwards (like certain Michigan homers I know), then be my guest, I'll be spending it on vets. But, to kick in 50 cb on a day 2 draftee and I win the auction, then I may have struck paydirt. If not, drop his butt and re-evaluate my talent scout...

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The reason why is easy to answer. This is the most loaded RB draft in years. The only position there is really no great prospects is QB, and there are still a couple that will be drafted high and possibly into starting positions. If you enjoy drafting rookies, this is the best draft, since I've been doing Rookie Drafts to be a part of.

The how is hard.

Sure, you can still draft the rookies, but you get no bonuses of being able to sit on them and let them develop, unless you take the "play for next year" mode some people did in the Frenzy.

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I don't know about you but I plan to build for both the present and the future from the start. The rooks will be the same to me as the vets, just younger.

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I don't think that the rookies will be the same which is why I would advocate having a seperate rookie auction. If an owner chooses to make a rookie active right away that would be up to the owner but I would like to be able to try and develop so young guys without having to make the active members of my team.

I would think that by letting everyone have a shot at any player you eliminate the concerns about developing a draft order. This will also allow the market to set the prices (within reason since I would think there should a cap in place for this year at maybe 8-12% of what ever the active cap is).

Not sure how this could hurt things since it seems to address everyone's concerns while also adding a developmental component that is part of what makes dynasty leagues fun and interesting.

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Because then we have to create another cap, conduct a 2nd auction, create another set of rules, rewite the Roster App...

All for 1 season of rookies. It's way too much work in an already complex league IMO.

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Just to weigh in, I in no way whatsoever can tell you what I think will work as most of this goes over my head missing out on the Frenzy history.

I would like a rookie draft/auction, as that is really one of the cooler moments in any league, but besides nostalga, I have no reason to say I want a rookie draft.

Everyone seems to have valid points (it is a deep draft, but I would imagine it is a lot more work), but if this one goes to a vote, I will have to stand down.

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Randilover.
I understand your respect. I am not a Frenzy-league player. So, I don't understand it all either. I do not want to overburden Mike (Preds) either.
However, do NOT discount your opinion. You are a owner in this league, which means your opinions count. Don't obstain. If you have questions, ask. I actually valued your last post. You admitted you weren't sure, but gave your reason for what you would like. That is all we are all doing.
I just don't want you to feel overwhelmed or antimidated by any of us, our antics, FF knowlege, who knows. We are all in the same boat -- we want an awesome league that is a blast to play! And that only happens if everyone participates in all aspects of the game.
ok. off my soap box now and back to my regularly scheduled job that is currenlty in progress....

Re: IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure
 

I also like rookie drafts, and see the benefits of doing one each year. However, I also agree that to start us off, we should just hold an auction for rookies. And since the auction style really is freeform, I see no reason to seperate them out this year. It would really make it easier to keep track of everything, not only for the commish, but for us owners. That's my opinion at least.

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The other option for the rookie draft is to base it largley on the Frenzy draft, flatten out the decline in salaries (since there are more rounds), and have everyone go in with the knowledge that the rookie salaries could very well be adjusted after the season. We did this one year in the Frenzy, when we determined the original rookie salaries were way out of whack (I don't remember who came up with that original scale, they must have been smoking something, whoever did the second one did a much better job). When we came up with the new one, we adjusted all of the original rookie salaries. I didn't do the work, but I don't think it was all that hard to do.

As for determining a fair order, I really think that if the first two rounds are serpentine, and the 3rd round on is the exact same order as the second round (ie, whoever gets the first pick, picks last in every other round), it balances out. Especially if everyone (read, unanimous) accepts this going in.

I really think it could work.

Edited to add, I could probably have a revised rookie salary scale by the end of the day, with two additional rounds.

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Sounds like a great idea, at least come up with something tangible. I think we could use one of the random pick generators out there to determine order (we used one in a couple startup leagues last year). Might make startup go a bit faster also.

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I am a huge proponent of having a rookie draft/auction so anything that could be done to make this part of the 2005 plan would be great!!

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I support a separate rookie draft as well. There is going to be a month or so of down time late summer as we wait for the start of the season. I think we could get it done.

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Thanks for the encouragement. Not overwhelmed or intimidated (yet), just slightly lost. I have printed out the rules for Frenzy though:read, so I am figuring to catch up as we go along...

Well, I'd like a auction, and I will have to trust any adjustments you fellas put together. As for order, a random generator sounds good. You can't squew something like that, so whoever winds up on the bottom will have no one to blame except for Divine providence. Plus adding the serpentine to it and then having it switch like was discussed sounds great to me. With 12 teams, having a draft this deep in talent sounds like it will work.

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Brian- not to hold your feet to the fire but did you have any luck with this? Also, are we sure that pick 1.1 is that valuable? If everyone else agrees then I am fine with it but I might suggest that rounds 1, 4, 6 have the same order and than 2, 3 and 5 be the inverse of round 1. Just a thought since I am not sure quite how to value 72 picks over 6 rounds. Thanks!

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I think in year 2 we'll be rolling things back and whatnot like we had to in the Frenzy the 1st couple years. I guess if everyone knows to expect that going in...

As for a draft order, Matt, if you don't think the 1.1 (in any draft) has more value than you're proposing, than I'll be the 1st in line to take the 1.1.

Brian's idea at a MINIMUM has to be considered (I'd still want the 1.1 in this setup)

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I've attached my proposal as a file. I based DL salaries like WRs, LBs like quarterbacks, and DBs a little higher than TEs. This is just a starting point and of course open for debate.

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How would you fairly determine who gets the first pick? Whoever ends up with one of the first 3 picks will be looking pretty good.

I am with Preds on this one. Let's just wait till next year.

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show us what you got when you get some numbers. Like Freedom stated, having something actually written is a lot different than just talking about it.

I think if Preds sees the numbers, he might be swayed. I would also like to see the numbers. I would prefer draft, but if it's too much work, then I'm fine with putting rookies with everyone else this year in the auction.

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OK, then. that's what I get for replying before I read to the bottom. Dodgers, I have a comment. DBs score more than DL (so you should switch their salaries to have DBs tagged with WR and DL tagged w/ TE).

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These look good to me. Thanks, Brian!

I would be fine with a random pick generation for this year (using records going forward) and would prefer that this be part of this years plan.

I stand corrected, upon further review pick 1.1 does hold enough value that making the owner of that pick, pick last in all following rounds makes sense. Sorry about that!!

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Not always. depends on what their goal is. If someone wants to RB (as most do, then fine). However, WR and QBs are more of 'projects' and needing the Taxi more than a RB who generally steps up faster. This is a very deep draft at most positions. I think it would be fine to have a draft this year, since no one really gets short end. There is no good way to do this otherwise. If you put it off, you have to create everything anyway. the only thing is the draft order will be determined...I think random generator is fair. And besides, it's not like our lives or money depend on this. It's for fun! I'll take 1.12. I don't care. I'm doing this because it's fun. Winning is a nice bonus (especially when you beat Preds:box ).

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Dude, stop writing stuff like that. I keep hearing Bette Midler in my head, "You are the winds beneath my wings."

Actually, that is very magnamous of you but I think if we all agree up front then the random idea works for me.

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I knew this was detailed somewhere, but I couldn't find the post, and since my head is still spinning from the defensive scoring, I just went on memory. Here's the updated version.

Also, as to the order, and fairness, I don't know there is a way to set a "fair" order. My vote would go to a random pick generator. Also, the three #1 picks in the Frenzy have been William Green, Charles Rogers, and Kevin Jones. While Jones looks to turn out to be a decent player, whoever ends up with the #1 isn't going to get an automatic stud with the pick. Plus, with the addition of the defensive players, the later rounds picks are more valuable, and the non-serpentive aspect after the second will be more important. Also, if we all agree that even though it is unfair, we agree to take our chances with a random pick generator, we all have the same shot, and there would be nothing to complain about.

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Thanks for clarifying this Brian and I agree if everyone knows the numbers going in then everyone should be happy.

BTW, looking at most mock drafts it looks like everyone should be able to get an NFL first rounder (since the only positions not being pick in this format would be OL) with probably close to their first 2 picks.

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I think you have the valuation of the positions mixed up Brian. IMO, DL's should be more like TE's not WR's.

The LB's should be along the WR scale, and the DB's should be justa tad below the WR scale (at least in terms of production).

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I did correct the reversal I had with DLs and CBs.

How about starting points of 350 for LBs, 300 for CBs, and 200 for DLs? I'm not in favor of having DLs starting all the way down at 150, since even at 5cb drop per draft slot, a 1.11 pick used on a DL is already at the 100 cb minimum.

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I think the TE scale should regress slower (maybe every 2 picks), probably the same with K's and DL

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Y, I see that now, I posted before I saw the fix. The LB's being slightly above the WR's is OK, with the DB's on par with the WR's.

See my comments in the previous post though on revising the sliding scale for TE's, K's, and DL.

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I like that idea.

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This looks much better, as I agreed with Rami and Preds that DL's should be below both LB and DB. This looks much more equitable.

Sounds like we are mixed here in preference, so let's put it to a vote. Random generated order draft or auction.

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Don't say stuff like that...I nearly lost my pop. I didn't say it to gag anyone. I said because I really don't care. I just want to play

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points taken. There's been a lot of debate. let's see where people stand.

On this vote, even if you don't have a strong opinion either way, I'd like you to vote which way you lean towards. If keeping Rooks separate wins, then we'll need another vote on auction or draft...I'll worry about that then. If not, we don't have to worry about this anymore because everyone will all be in the same auction.

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6 votes in and we have a 50/50 deadlock... why am I not surprised lol!

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I am liking having the draft and have voted accordingly. The generator will pick order and as Freedom mentioned above, most of us will be all but guaranteed 2 of the first rounders (if it falls that way). Including IDP's really does change the course of the draft. Although they may score less, landing a valuable rookie stud IDP could anchor a defense for years to come.

Also, like Rami, I'd find even the 12th pick valuable (seeing you'd get #13 as well), and as for the salary/cap/bonus issue, putting them in line with where the predictive scoring had them should cover the issues, which, if need be, can be modified next year, we all should plan on that potentially being the case.