2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Here is a tentative draft order (using points as a tie breaker) except in the case of Jake and I since one of my two wins was against him:

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2)
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75)
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45)
4=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and2203.4)
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4)
6=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75)
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2)
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55)

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8)
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5)
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55)
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4)

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Okay, upon further review of the rules we don't actually specify what will break ties between two teams with the same record when it comes to draft order. I am guessing the Frenzy rules don't address this either.

My thought it would be that it should be total points for the year (with the team with less points getting a higher pick) but that seems a little self-serving at this point.

Whatever is decided we really should write this up and make sure that it is added to the rules for the future.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

My thoughts

A) Ties betwen 2 teams are broken by h2h

B) Ties of 3 or more teams are h2h amongst the teams with one caveat, each team must have played an equal number of games (ie. ties where 2 division teams are 7-7, and a 3rd team from another division is also 7-7 would revert to the next tiebreaker since 2 out of the 3 teams would have played more games against each other than the 3rd).

C) If there is an unequal # of games between 3 or more teams, or the h2h records of all teams are equal; revert to total points, with the higher points getting lower picks.

* Anytime a multiple situation tie is cut down to 2 teams, revert back to A

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Ties between 3 or more teams should first narrow the field down to 1 team per division using the division tie break. Once that is done you will have at most one team per division then you go by the h2h2h records.

This is how the NFL does it.

Not sure how it applys to this years ties.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I think if it has to be H2H than it has to be by winning percentage and then points to break other ties. In all honesty the better barometer of who should pick higher is probably total points scored over the course of the season particularily in a head to head league like ours (since records can be skewed by playing a hot team).

Another option which I think would actually be the best would be All Wins (which I think some websites track) where each week the best team goes 11-0 and the worst goes 0-11. This tends to be a good indicator over the course of the season of who has the strongest (and thus the weakest) teams.

Anyhow, whatever we decide should be recorded in the ever growing rules documentation. Thanks!

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Actually we have "All Play" records on the site. Check under owner statistics.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Really? That was not my understanding. In my local league, we have always modeled our tie breakers after NFL rules, and we have never applied it this way.

I by no means mean to imply that it isn't entirely possible we have always done it wrong, but I have never understood it this way.

As far as the order posted, I'm glad my decent play of late didn't screw me out of too good a draft pick.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

From NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Cool. That could have affected previous seasons. I'll have to bring that up for discussion.

Thanks.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Okay, that is a lot to digest. I still think "All Play/All Wins" is the way to go especially if it is already tracked and easy to determine by looking at the website.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Here are all the teams with their records, points scored and all play win %:

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2) = 26.6%
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75) = 19.5%
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45) = 42.2%
4=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and 2203.4) = 29.2%
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4) = 43.5%
6=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75) = 51.3%
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2) = 56.8%
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55) = 55.5%

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8) = 61.0%
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5) = 74.7%
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55) = 72.7%
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4) = 66.9%

I think for the future this is by far the best way to break ties if two or more teams are tied.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I agree this would probably be the easiest way to do this. We do not need to mimick the NFL.

The big question is what do we do this year? We have 2 ties to work out - the two way between Eco Warriors and Gunslingers and the 3 wayh between Chambers, Bloodsuckers and Hill.

Since the rules do not spell it out I think we need to ask WWFD (what would Frenzy do?) since the rules are based off of that set of rules (it pains this CDLer to type that ;) .

This can be added to the growing list of issues to vote on in the off season. I like freedom's suggestion for tie break.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Frenzy has the same cluster**** situation, and we haven't determined a solution there yet either. In the past, we've used h2h.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I think that All Play is the best way to measure who really sucked worse, but in this case (SAC'd) that would seem self-serving since it would give me the top pick.

Not sure what the right answer is for this year but I definately think it is the right way for next year (and going forward).

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

H2H is always the first line of tie-breaking in every league I have played in (at least that I can recall). Then it seems to be total points. All-play record would be nice, but I have never seen that used in tie-breakers in any league, and it seem to be bad precedence to use it this year.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

So for this year do we default to the way the NFL does it.

That would result in

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2) = 26.6% lost h2h with Gunslingers
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75) = 19.5% won h2h with Warriors
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45) = 42.2%
4=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75) = 51.3% lost h2h with Bloodsuckers
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4) = 43.5% won h2h with Chambers
6=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and 2203.4) = 29.2% better div record than Bloodsuckers
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2) = 56.8%
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55) = 55.5%

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8) = 61.0%
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5) = 74.7%
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55) = 72.7%
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4) = 66.9%

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

The more I think about it I think this is wrong. This really doesnt work/make sence for draft order. The NFL apparently thinks so to so they have a seperate segment for Tie Breaking for the draft

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

NFL basically takes it down to strenght of schedule.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

To chime in, I feel it should be H2H, then total points, if there is a tie still, then go with 'play all'.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

the problem with h2h is the 3way tie where 2 teams are in the same division.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

For this year I am fine with H2H since that was what I understood it to be from the Frenzy.

However, I think the best way in the long run is to go with All Play to break ties since this seems to give you the best overall indicator of whose team is strongest (or weakest and needs the most help!!).

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

We had a similar discussion in the IFFL recently. We broke it down by comparing individual teams to one another (H2H 1st, Total Points 2nd, haven't decided on 3rd yet). So here would be the IFFL breakdown for SAC'D

1. Mutts (2-12) - Lost H2H w/Freedom
2. Freedom (2-12) - Won H2H w/Mutts
3. Burt (5-9)
4. Dodgers (6-8) - Lost H2H w/Swords, Split H2H w/Flaxwless, Less points than Flaxwless
5. Swords (6-8) - Won H2H w/Dodgers, Lost H2H w/Flaxwless
6. Flaxwless (6-8) - Won H2H w/Swords, Split H2H w/Dodgers, More points than Dodgers
7. randilover (7-7)
8. Preds (8-6)

It's unlikely to come down to a 3rd tie-breaker but in the IFFL we've discussed using Coach's Grade or Power Ranking as the 3rd tie-breaker.

2cents

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Does FBG still have the "Ask the commish" feature. Basically someone who would make rulings on issues from a impartial point of view? Last year they had it but it was just for paying members.

Because of the fact that none of us is impartial I suggest we send this to either the FBG service (I am sure someone on the board is a member (I'm not) or another independant arbitrator. We agree that for this year we will accept whatever their decision is for this year and in the off season add tie breakers to the rules.

I would suggest posting on the FFB boards for opinions but we would probably get 10 different options and no solution.

Email I would send

:edit to fix mixup with first set of ties h2h

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Skippy, real nice job on the summary. However,
Should be:
1st set of ties
Bloomington Eco Warriors 2-12, 2024.2 points, 26.6%, Lost H2H w/Gunslinger
Glenside Gunslingers 2-12, 1990.75, 19.5%, Won H2H w/Eco Warriors

Also, I know Randilover is a FBG's member but I am not sure about the ask the commish feature.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

fixed

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

preds do you have a fbg membership?

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Should read:

Maplewood Mountain Lions 6-8, 2203.4, 29.2%, Lost H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Bloodsuckers
Bay Area Bloodsuckers 6-8, 2389.4, 43.5%, <REMOVE>Won H2H w/Mts Lions,</REMOVE> Won H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Mts Lions
Disciples of the 36 Chambers 6-8, 2510.75, 51.3%,Won H2H w/Mtn Lions, Lost H2H w/Bloodsuckers


Note: I still think my solution above is the most logical with H2H and Total Points as the tie breakers. You should compare each team to each of the others not all 3 against each other unless you have a loop (ie. Team A won H2H against Team B, Team B won H2H against Team C, and Team C won H2H against Team A....in which case you'd go to total points b/n the 3 teams)...we don't have a loop in our situation.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

fixed per swords post.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

i just think we should let someone else decide because it is hard for anyone here to have an unbiased opinion.

it is not just the 5 teams mentioned that have conflict of interest issues. it is a lot of others once you factor in traded picks

not trying to say anyone would be unfair, but this way there is no room for complainingl

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

what about using a few guys who aren't in SAC'D but are in the Frenzy or CDL...maybe someone like Jim (Royal Hawaiian Opihi) and some others might be willing to give us feedback or make a non-biased decision.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I think Jim would be great as an arbitrator.


Anyone have an objection to either Jim or the idea of having an arbitrator make the call?

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I have an FBG membership (did me a lot of good, eh?). I'll check to see if they have an ask the commish feature and report back.....

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Doggler seems to like to throw a comment out here and there so he might be worth asking also.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Doggler doesn't know jack.....:idiot

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

doggler never learned that it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool then to open your mouth and confirm it.









j/k - he would be fine by me as an arbitrator if burt reports back that FBG doesn't have a ask the commish feature.

maybe a 3 person team to look at it - jim, dogz and ???

i'd recommend cheezy, but he is one of my alias' and friends with me and one of my other alias' (rami).

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Sent off the email to Ask The Commish...I'll report what their reply is...Is this what everyone wants to go with? Sounds good to me, but I am not affected either way. Seems to be more logical, being that they would be totally non-biased, and the others mentioned are always on the board, so may have leanings one way or the other based on the other leagues they are in. But either way would be fine with me

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

rules committe/commish should chime in.

can they live with whatever the FBG ask the commish comes back with.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I'm fine with whatever the 'outside' party decides.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

For the record, I have no personal preference of how the ties be broken. My only preference is that the Frenzy and SAC'D agree for simplicity sake.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I am proposing the outside arbitrator determine this years tie breaks then in the off season we come up with the official go forward method.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I think FBGs is a solid source of an opinion. I also would feel very confident with the decision in Jim's hands.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Got a reply from FBG, but he wanted more info, so I sent him a link to our Scores and Standings page. Should have a full ruling sometime tomorrow I would imagine....

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

So, do we all agree to go with FBG's ruling? I got their reply, so I can post it as soon as ya'all want....

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Sounds fair to me

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

No objections from me.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

I'm a FBG hater these days, but I'm not involved in the ties and don't care how we break them. I think the teams involved are the only consent you need.

For future years, I really like Matt's suggestion to use All Play records then total points, and throw h2h out entirely.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

im a fbg hater too (except for the ffa) but i think they can give an unbiased opinion.

i think using all play and points is a good idea. it really shows who sucked it up and needs the better pick

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

OK, well since no one has objected, here is the ruling from FBG. The 4-1 picks are, of course, still to be determined based on playoff outcome:
=================================================
This is kind of a bizarre set of circumstances. Since you have no rules in place and are asking me to pick a set arbitrarily, I am going to suggest you use the NFL’s rules. During the offseason, review our exhaustive article on ties: http://apps.footballguys.com/04davies_kissing.cfm. (Burt's comment: I can look at this if you all want, and post this in another thread?)

This means that my ruling is the Eco Warriors draft before the Gunslingers by virtue of losing to them in the head-to-head.
The 6-8 ties are a little more complicated. With 3 or more teams, one team is selected as the winner and then you start over at the beginning. (In this case the team that drafts last of the three.) The head-to-head in a 3-way-tie must involve a sweep. That did not happen. The second tie breaker has to do with best record in the conference. You have one conference, do it doesn’t apply. The next few tie-breakers are pretty much NFL-league specific and do not apply. The following tiebreaker is best NET points. That is PF less PA. You have given me PF, but that’s it. If I had PA, I could probably render a decision.
Can you give me the complete standings and week-by-week results for your league?
================================================== ===
(Burt's comment: I then sent him a link to our Scores and Standings page)
Burt,
OK, here you go:
Official 2006 Draft Order
1 Eco Warriors (2-12; lost to GG)
2 Glenside Gulslinger (2-12; won over EW)
3 Falcon Floyds (5-9)
4 Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8; lost to Disciples of the 36 hambers)
5 Disciples of the 26 Chambers (6-8; lost to Maplewood Mountain Lions)
6 Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8; most NET points of tied teams)
7 Jawbone Hill (7-7)
8 Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6)
9 Valencia Vibe (9-5)
10 Good Grief (10-4)
11 Subzero (11-3)
12 Chagrin Falls D.M.K.M. Snow (12-2)

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Its interesting that all the old-school footballguys have all started to turn on them. I'm with you - this is the first year in a long time I haven't paid for a subscription.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Since we've decided how to break the ties, in the future, I hate the all play records for tie breakers. The whole fun of fantasy football is the individual weekly games. Making them important is what is fun. Does anyone here play in a league where the winner is the team who has accumulated the most points over the course of the season? Does anyone play in a leauge where the top half of the scorers get wins, while the bottom half get losses? I'd bet not, but if anyone does, I'd also bet it is not the most fun league you are in. The whole fun of FF is playing H2H, and the importance of those games should carry over. If two teams are tied, the first tie breaker should always be what happened when those teams played each other. What we do after that, I care less about, but getting rid of H2H as a tie breaker is ludicrous IMHO.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Brian,

The NFL actually tosses out h2h and goes straight to strength of schedule when it comes to tie breakers for draft picks (whether it be 2 teams tied or 10).

The NFL system for draft pick tiebreakers uses strength of schedule 1st, with the weaker schedules getting higher picks. The team with the weakest schedule gets the highest pick in the 1st round, in the 2nd round, they move to the end of the list with the tied teams, and every other team moves up. This process proceeds for each round.

I think the All Play is a good reflection of strength of schedule, or at a minimum the strength or weaknesses of each team.

Finally, my local 14 team league DOES award wins and losses to the top half and bottom half scoring teams each week, these wins and losses are in addition to our h2h schedule. It's a very difficult, challenging league, and the split wins or losses and h2h helps mitigate some of the luck factor. I like the system quite a bit actually, and it IS a fun league.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

FBG's info deteriorates each year, and their holier than thou attitude gets old quickly. FBG has turned into a quantity over quality site.

I still like the boards for real-time info, but you have to wade through a lot of shit. The FFA is actually their most attractive feature these days, and the way their nazi modding it, they may kill the only good thing they have left.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Well, things are back to normal, and we disagree, on just about all counts of this post.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

http://www.predsff.com/forums/images/smilies/iagree.gif

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

http://www.predsff.com/forums/images/smilies/iagree.gif also

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Looks like we will have an interesting vote at some point in the next couple of months!

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

FYI... I'll repeat that the NFL does NOT use h2h for draft order tiebreakers... they use STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE. I think we should emulate that. It wouldn't be that hard to addup the wins and losses of all 12 teams and determine our own strength of schedule.

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

With 32 teams, trying to mix in h2h would seem to be more of a headache than it's worth for the NFL, especially since half of most teams games are within thier own division. I can see why they would not try to use it as a tie-breaker when determining drafting order. With only 12 teams, we should be able to use it more easily if we decide that is what the masses want.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Late to the conversation, but I'd thought I'd weight in. Would h2h percentage work? That's how we do it in the league Freedom and I are in together. (Ask him who won this year too...)

I'm with Burt and Brian though. How could you not use h2h first? We had a guy in my other league who through like week 8 ior 9 was near the bottom in head to head but was first in teh division. Why should that guy get a better draft than me if let's say I was third in my division but with more points. I get the reasoning that less points scored means you suck, but your h2h is the determining factor first, IMO.

Re: 2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)
 

Not sure what you are trying to say with your last statement there, but overall record would still be used unless 2 teams are tied...so a first place team would never draft before a 3rd place team without a trade, regardless of H2H record or total points.