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Originally Posted by smsmith40
Watch out neo-con about(j/k). Democracy as a judeo-christian ideal. Not much evidence of that about. I can't think of a single example where the church was a driving force for democracy through history until the democratic ideal has become widely accepted in the late 20th century.
The church has been around for 2000 years, democracy is an idea that has only taken root in the last 100. Religion and the church dominated society for a 1300 years without a single step being taken towards democracy. The founding fathers and other heroes of democracy may have been religious people, they may have quoted God in their defence in the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Arbroath (look it up, its inspiring) but they were not acting with the approval of the established church.
Democracy has been established because of popular dissent against the ruling elite. The ruling elite has always contained the church.
The church is fundamnetally an undemocratic organisation. The guy at the top decides what the rules are and everybody else either buys in or ships out.
You know the Church of England and the Anglican church worldwide are having serious problems deciding whether to accept gay clergy and women bishops. I've never once heard anybody suggesting that they should have a vote to see what the membership actually wants.
100 odd cardinals decided the leader of 2 billion catholics, who appointed the cardinals. Oh yes! The old leader. Who did they choose? Only the head of the Inquisition.
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Ok, but the church is not a political institution. It's based off of a quite detailed heirarchy from the Bible itself. However, it's influence in birthing modern democracy can not be discounted, and in fact is a direct corrolation. There is no other society on earth that would have had the social and moral structure to give light to democracy (as it's now know). I've heard a well known speaker/scholar talk of his speaking with a Muslim scholar, and the Muslim conceeded that Islam would never have given way to democracy (as it now stands, and Islam is an example, I'm not picking on it.) The ideals and morals put forth by those landing at Plymouth rock (who themselves were escaping a religious institution) and those of the founding fathers who wholeheartedly believed what they wrote, that God was behind what they were putting down on paper. I don't think it is a reach to say what I noted earlier, that Jedeo-Christian values are the basis for modern democracy. Sure some of the founding fathers were not Christian, but most were, and most of the learning institutions (schools, colleges, universities) were at the time as well.
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Originally Posted by smsmith40
ps National Socialism was born in Bavaria, which was a devoutly catholic part of the world in the 1920s. Parts of Germany was becoming more secular, there was an emerging communist movement.
In no way ami I suggesting that facist movements were either encouraged, supported or connected to the Church.
But Facism developed in Italy, Spain and southern Germany, the three most religious societies in 20th century Europe. Facism's twin brother Communism developed in another highly religious society.
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Ah, yes, I agree with you, but to put forth logic as the alternative to a religious society is equally as damning as Germany was the most highly educated and philosophically literate society on the planet at the time. It then gave way to arguably the greatest tyrant in history. Take note those who look to the figurative text book for "absolute truth."