July 7th, 2005, 12:38 PM | #1 | ||||
SAC'D
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Ok, maybe this should be another thread, like a evo vs. creation debate, and I may have missed something in response to one of my earlier posts, but I will try to catch up when I can, it’s very overwhelming.
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I was always shown that picture of various animal fetuses lined up, and was then told you can see that a sheep, human, frog, and something else are all derived from the same thing by how they all look alike in gestation. The Human Genome project and all the other DNA research that has come out recently debunk that assertion. The complexity of life is so particular, you bear no resemblance to any other animal at any point of your progress or development. Also, just because things are alike does not mean they are all derivatives of the same thing. It’s more likely that that particular likeness is used in various functions because it works (pointing to a design to life), like having a combustion engine in a car, train, and boat since that is the type of mechanism that works. I was always shown that picture of the black moth on the tree outside a factory in England during the Industrial Revolution that killed off all the white ones because of the soot. It later came out that they pinned the dark ones to the trees to make the point that did not exist. Or the best is the ape-man assertions, the missing link, which is still missing. Peking Man, Piltdown Man, and Java Man were all frauds. We have yet to find the link from human back to The lack of fossil evidence screams volumes for the Creation side of the argument. There are no transitional fossils to speak of. National Geographic thought it had one a few years ago, and it even made the cover. Problem was it was two fossils compressed together. I do not doubt Dawin’s sincerity in what he wrote years ago, but even he mentions the problem of not enough evidence. Over 100 years later, it is still missing. Also, I do not doubt the sincerity of the teaching we have received, but it has left much out to reach a pre-determined end. Quote:
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I’d also make the point that lack of evidence is different than conflicting evidence. Just because a certain city or character can not be found is no evidence that it does not exist. Until recently, King David was thought a myth, then in 1993 evidence was uncovered. Same for Pontus Pilate, Cesarea, etc. The fact is that much evidence that comes out confirms what was written back when. Man, that was a mouthful (fingerful?). On to other topics to debate. |
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July 7th, 2005, 01:18 PM | #2 | |||||||||
Feeding Frenzy
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Wow, lots to respond to in this one. Let's get started.
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These are all opposed to the millions of years (at least) that are required for evolution to even have a chance. Quote:
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July 7th, 2005, 01:18 PM | #3 | ||
SAC'D
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Sorry if I am breaking this thred up into too many, but we are all over around this topic.
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Also, note that the creation story of Genesis is different than others. Almost all creation stories do not have the something from nothing noted by the Hebrew scripture. Most have a god coming out of a river that makes this thing and that thing, or someone falling out of a sky. But thereby dictate that something was always before it. The Biblical account stands in contrast by having the creation be separate from the creator, and having a point where all things started. Also, I would not count good and evil as typical, they are a crux of the religion and philosophy of Judism and Christianity. Quote:
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July 7th, 2005, 01:25 PM | #4 |
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
This topic deserves it's own thread... carry on, I can't wait to see both sides.
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July 7th, 2005, 01:27 PM | #5 | |
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
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July 7th, 2005, 01:35 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
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July 7th, 2005, 02:04 PM | #7 | ||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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Except for your parenthetical comment, you're not disagreeing with Darwin's theory: because those biological systems work, they were perpetuated through successful reproduction. Subsequent random mutation accounts for the diversity. Quote:
If God can use the Big Bang to create the universe, then why can't He use evolution to create humans? |
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July 7th, 2005, 02:09 PM | #8 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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I'd like to hear more about your heredity experiments in college. Do you use moths or some other species? How many generations did it take to achieve observable results? |
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July 7th, 2005, 03:13 PM | #9 | ||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 7th, 2005, 03:38 PM | #10 | ||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 7th, 2005, 04:06 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
OK, I wasn't get what you are saying, now I understand.
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However, it seems much more plausible to me that at some point during pre-written history, the fertile valley between the Cypres and Euphrates (known as the cradle of civilization) was flooded, and the flood wiped out a large portion of the population. Legend of the flood spread and was shared throughout humanity. By the time things started getting written down, this old story was accepted as history, and was put in the good book, as well as being engrained in every other culture, since flood stories are evident in just about every culture/religion in the world, but of course they each vary in details. Or, is there a more plausible explanation for why each religion has a flood story that differs in details, yet the Christian one is the only story to have remained 100% accurate? |
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July 7th, 2005, 04:46 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 7th, 2005, 04:51 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 7th, 2005, 04:57 PM | #14 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 7th, 2005, 05:01 PM | #15 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 7th, 2005, 11:57 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 8th, 2005, 03:54 AM | #17 | |
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
OK I think that the Noah's ar k thing has been done perfectly thoroughly already so I want to get back to some of Randilovers other points
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On some of the other points on the old earth theory, I love the way creationists sit and poke holes in the theory without coming up with credible evidence of a young earth theory. I'm going to research the various points individually later. |
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July 8th, 2005, 08:34 AM | #18 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 8th, 2005, 10:03 AM | #19 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 8th, 2005, 10:31 AM | #20 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 11th, 2005, 09:53 AM | #21 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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Also, I do not think Darwin looked to a creator the way the ID movement is doing nowadays. Darwin was flawed (or at least his succesors who took hold of his idea) because he accounted for ALL life arising for a single source. Due to the empirical necessities required for this to happen, I would say it takes more faith for that to be believed than for a creator to be behind the origin of life. EDIT: For the evolution of humans, I would call it an in-house Christian debate as to whether God "used" evolution, but at whatever point God stepped in, it would cease to be evolution in the macro sense and therefore be design. Either way, it does not really help one way or the other to prove or disprove it. Humbly, I would state that when the Bible says 1 day, it means just that. And when it tells the creation of man story, I think it means what it says. I have a hard time with the metaphorical interpretation of the Bible as at some point you'd have dictate to the text when you want it to stop being metaphorical and then become literal/historical. I think that is dangerous ground as a Christian. But, again, this is in-house. Last edited by randilover; July 11th, 2005 at 10:51 AM. |
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July 11th, 2005, 10:39 AM | #22 | ||||||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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2) Actually, there is a missing piece to the puzzle about the flood: " 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. " It was not just rain that caused the flood. It appears, according to the Bible, that the another source was from beneath the earth. Not sure if this plays into the whole arguement about "that much rain" as it, quite possibly, could have been considerably less rain than is assumed. 3) I will post a quote from a site that is pro-Ark, but does not seem to assert anything controversial: How in the world could all the animals fit into the Ark? First, Noah could have taken youthful or smaller animals. Second, Noah did not need to take fish or other aquatic animals/creatures on the Ark. As you can see, objectively rethinking the situation reduces the count considerably. The dimensions of the ark would comfortably allow support of all animals. The Volume of Noah's Ark would have been 1,396,000 cubic feet. The Gross Tonnage of Noah's Ark would have been 13,960 tons. The Capacity of Noah's Ark would have been 522 railroad stock cars which could hold 125,280 sheep-sized animals. Because of speciation (ex. two dogs created all the different dogs today), only about 16,000 individual animals would be necessary on Noah's Ark. An excellent resource written by John Woodmorappe is Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study . Quote:
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July 11th, 2005, 11:11 AM | #23 | ||||||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 11th, 2005, 11:18 AM | #24 |
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
Oh dear!
Old Earth v Young Earth, Evolution v Intelligent Design, Bible Literalists v Metaphoricalists (is that even a word?).Is the world ever a complicated place? I enjoy a creation v evolution discussion but they are ultimately pointless, you might as well call it a apples v oranges thread. Evolution is a scientific theory, creation is a religious belief. Evolution is a theory developed to fit observed facts, creationism is an attempt to find facts that fit a set of beliefs. Scientific thearies make predictions about future behaviour that can be measured. Creationism does not. Randilover - I don't want to criticise your sources but I had to laugh at the title you quoted. Noah's Ark - A Feasability Study. My feeling is that I don't even have to read it to know that in the end the author decided that it was perfectly feasible. |
July 11th, 2005, 11:33 AM | #25 | ||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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There is a beauty to how the whole story plays out, reflecting the beauty in the mind of the story teller. But I'm getting into ascethics, which is rather divergent from this subject. But beauty and pleasure would be a good topic for the skeptics to discuss, as it is comparable to the problem of pain for the believer. Quote:
Last edited by randilover; July 11th, 2005 at 11:40 AM. |
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July 11th, 2005, 11:40 AM | #26 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 11th, 2005, 12:15 PM | #27 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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July 11th, 2005, 12:24 PM | #28 | ||
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
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I've also read that in reference to similarities, that humans have more in common with non-mammels than we do with primates, which would be the opposite of the evolutionary stand point. Quote:
1) Comets disintegrate too quickly 2) Galaxies wind themselves up too fast 3) Not enough mud on the sea floor 4) Not enough sodium in the sea 5) The Earth’s magnetic field is decaying too fast 6) Many strata are too tightly bent 7) Helium in the wrong places |
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July 11th, 2005, 01:06 PM | #29 | ||||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/chapter4.php Also, I am not being rude in any way, but what was your starting point? I believe I missed it. Quote:
You see, you state that religion comes to the table with a presupposed idea that what is said is true, therefore we rewrite the evidence to conform to my idea. However, I am stating the evolutionist does this (and anyone for that matter, no one is devoid of bias to there point of view) as there is little to no supporting evidence to back his idea. To state that an evolution does not come to the table with a preconceived idea and does not rewrite the evidence is what is ridiculous. Part of the reason Darwin's idea took off was that science since the Enlightenment had been looking for a reason to burry the idea of a Creator, when Darwin put it down on paper, they ran with it. My assertion is that evolution claims that life started when a conglomeration of gases and other elements exploded, formed the universe, and set into motion our solar system. On one of the planets, which just happened to be the right distance from it's heat source, a mix of proteins and other chemicals underwent a cataclysmic event that united them into a singled or multicelled organism that mutated and mutated over eons of time (and against current laws of science which dictate the universe decomposes, not composes) to become a water animal which then moved onto land after more mutation and then started walking upright, evolving into what is the currently all modern species requires more faith than the fact of what I am doing at looking at the evidence that points to a Creator. If I have misrepresented something, let me know what. I may be simplifying, but I do not believe it has been misrepresented. |
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July 11th, 2005, 01:22 PM | #30 | ||
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Re: Creationism vs Evolution Discussion
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