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View Poll Results: Should we talk some Theology or not?
Yup, just don't take it personal or lose respect 12 92.31%
Nopes, stick to Fantasy Football 1 7.69%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 23rd, 2005, 06:07 PM   #1
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Default Civil / Religous Rights to Marriage Discussion

Before violating anyones trust, or insulting anyone, how do you guys feel about a thread debating theology?

Good? Bad? This board is about FF, keep religion and politics out of it?

I know for a fact there are a lot of ahem "believers" out there, and probably just as many "unbelievers" (to borrow the title from Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series).

Personally, I'm agnostic, in large part due to a childhood of having born again Christianity jammed down my throat (kinda like the SAC'D rookie draft ;)), but I love a good debate... as long as folks don't take things personally, or think less of others because of what they believe.

So what say you all... wanna play on this topic.... or should we lock it up?
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Old June 23rd, 2005, 09:42 PM   #2
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Raiders Re: Theology Discussion?

I like any lively debate or discussion. It's like you say though... "No personal attacks or taking things too personal" Sometimes easier said than done.
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Old June 24th, 2005, 07:58 AM   #3
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

I think this would be interesting. Valencia has a good point. I think some things that are said may not be intended to 'probe too far' but many people have their radars turned up so high on the topic of religion that you even say "Jesus Christ" in any other vain than as a surprised statement or ticked off explosion, people get the jitters.

Mike, I'm actually not that far from you. I didn't have anything jammed down my throat, but I was raised in a going to church. My dad is very antagonistic when it comes to religion (still). My mom took my brother and me to church, but the church was hypocritical (very) - which turned me off for years. I was very anti-established religion for years. Until about eight years ago. Now, I am still growing in my walk, but know where I'm facing.

I think a lot of what happens is sad in the name of religion.
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Old June 24th, 2005, 08:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
Personally, I'm agnostic, in large part due to a childhood of having born again Christianity jammed down my throat (kinda like the SAC'D rookie draft ;)), but I love a good debate... as long as folks don't take things personally, or think less of others because of what they believe.
I don't think you could offend me any more talking about religion than you already have with some of your FF opinions.
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Old June 24th, 2005, 08:34 AM   #5
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers
I don't think you could offend me any more talking about religion than you already have with some of your FF opinions.
That no surprise
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Old June 24th, 2005, 08:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Remember, if someone does say something in this discussion that offends you: "love the sinner, hate the sin." :angel
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Old June 24th, 2005, 09:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

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Originally Posted by Ypsilanti Undead
Remember, if someone does say something in this discussion that offends you: "love the sinner, hate the sin." :angel
Ok, there ya go, already starting with the judgemental "sinner" crap.

I'm OUT!

:p ;)
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Old June 24th, 2005, 12:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Like everyone else I am fine with the discussion thread being here.
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Old June 24th, 2005, 12:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

OK, Mike, I think we're getting resounding support for this topic to be addressed. What point would you like to make?
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Old June 24th, 2005, 05:04 PM   #10
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Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers
I don't think you could offend me any more talking about religion than you already have with some of your FF opinions.


And most of you know, being an ordained United Methodist minister, this is kind of my line of work... talking theology, not "jamming down throats," by the way. :rockon
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Old June 24th, 2005, 06:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers
OK, Mike, I think we're getting resounding support for this topic to be addressed. What point would you like to make?
None in particular, have had some debates/discussions with randilover via IM's... though maybe others would like to join in.

If you MUST have a point to start off with, lets start with the collection of fables that Christians call the Bible... a warped collection of stories that have been repackaged into the Christian church's own version of reality (but IMO an innacurrate one).

Saucy enough to get things started?
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Old June 24th, 2005, 06:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Hawaiian Opihi


And most of you know, being an ordained United Methodist minister, this is kind of my line of work... talking theology, not "jamming down throats," by the way. :rockon
An approach I respect. If all pastors/priests were as cool as you Jim I'd have less of a problem with the Christian church. Unfortunately, in my experience, many are a bunch of hypocrites.
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Old June 25th, 2005, 12:23 AM   #13
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
An approach I respect. If all pastors/priests were as cool as you Jim I'd have less of a problem with the Christian church. Unfortunately, in my experience, many are a bunch of hypocrites.
Christians don't have the market on hypocricy or "ramming their morals" down your throat. Just as many secular sectors of society do the same thing, but they are more accepted today.

I do agree that "bible thumping" is not what Christ intended when he instructed us to spread the good word. His examples were mostly of subtly pointing out the error of peoples ways, and helping them come to the same conclusion.

The biggest problem I have with the belief that there is no higher being, is if not, then what is the point of our lives here? Why do we feel bad when we hurt others? Why not just live for ourselves, and not worry about anything else? I mean, what is the point if we just die and rot in the ground when this life is done?
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Old June 25th, 2005, 08:29 AM   #14
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher
Christians don't have the market on hypocricy or "ramming their morals" down your throat. Just as many secular sectors of society do the same thing, but they are more accepted today.

I do agree that "bible thumping" is not what Christ intended when he instructed us to spread the good word. His examples were mostly of subtly pointing out the error of peoples ways, and helping them come to the same conclusion.

The biggest problem I have with the belief that there is no higher being, is if not, then what is the point of our lives here? Why do we feel bad when we hurt others? Why not just live for ourselves, and not worry about anything else? I mean, what is the point if we just die and rot in the ground when this life is done?
Ah, but I never said I do not believe in the possibility of a higher being, what I dispute is that the Christian version is the only answer.

I'm agnostic, not atheist.

My problems revolve more around organized religion, and the sham that much (not all) of it is... and that's most religions, not just Christianity... it's just most my experience has been with Christianity, which again, IMO, is NOT the only answer.
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Old June 25th, 2005, 06:45 PM   #15
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

BTW... while I'm open to mutiple religous beliefs... this one aint one of them http://xenu.net/

Hubbard was WACKED!

I may have to change my team name to the Thetans or Xenu or something. Read the Xenu leaflet... good stuff, great laugh.

BTW, if any of you are a Scientologist, I apologize, but the Xenu story is quite funny to an "outsider."
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Old June 25th, 2005, 07:58 PM   #16
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Exclamation Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
Unfortunately, in my experience, many are a bunch of hypocrites.
:agree We're ALL a bunch of hypocrites... that's just part of being human.
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Old June 25th, 2005, 09:14 PM   #17
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Raiders Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
BTW, if any of you are a Scientologist, I apologize, but the Xenu story is quite funny to an "outsider."
I don't care where yer from... even if it is 'Teegeeack'.. "That's Funny". ROFLMAO

I was just wondering... :Shrug Does the external battery for the force-field have a little pink bunny w/a base drum on it? If so... I am buying some stock.. :bling

The one thing that all religion has in common is the belief in a "Higher Power". I hate to rail on any single group(Scientology in this case), but some things are Laughable.
Unfortunately, even this pompous attitude is dangerous. The one thing I have learned in life is... "you never know"

I go back to some of my "Blackfoot" upbringing and I believe that there are many paths in life. The most important one is the path to becoming a good human being. I am still working hard on finding my way, but that is what I believe "life is all about".

OK... let's get off the :soapbox I hope everyone is having a great weekend. Enjoy your family and loved ones. Life is short.
Late,
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Old June 28th, 2005, 04:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

surprised this has stalled from last week.

I think a lot of good things were brought up. I think Jim had one of best points, we're all messed up and hypocrites - whether we want to acknowledge it or not. The key is what do you do with that.

I need to process some of what's said before I reply again.
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Old June 28th, 2005, 05:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

I think I scared folks off challenging the legitimacy of the bible, and following that up with Xenu and co.!
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Old June 28th, 2005, 06:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

It took me so long to respond, and this bore out from me and Preds IM'ing on the subject. I guess the easiest way to start is that I am a Christian. I believe there is a god, but not all religions are the same. Most people think that religions are different on the surface, but pretty much the same at the core. The opposite is true.

What Christianity has to offer is the explanation to what Burt kind of mentions above, the "point of our lives." There is something out there that demands in us something we demand of others (fairness, etc.), but so often we can/do not meet on our own. Christianity offers the greatest answer to the origin of the problem, that God is a personal God, and how the demands of that law are met and satisfied. That's why I am a Christian. The others do not come close.

Just like to add a note that let's be after the truth. "If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair." -C.S. Lewis

And one final thing, the Scientology is whacked. Valencia had me cracking up. Did the Xenu alien picture have you creeped out or what?
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Old June 28th, 2005, 06:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by randilover
It took me so long to respond, and this bore out from me and Preds IM'ing on the subject. I guess the easiest way to start is that I am a Christian. I believe there is a god, but not all religions are the same. Most people think that religions are different on the surface, but pretty much the same at the core. The opposite is true.
Please give me more reason as why you feel this. Personally I see it as having simlar cores, extremely similar. Just look at the history. The Bible, the Koran, and other sacred texts, all have similar stories of origin, or disasters, or miracles, etc. Many of the fables in the Old Testament can be found in Mesopotamian fables from thousands of years earlier. The same can be said of the Koran. So lets see an agurment as to how they're not similar

Quote:
Originally Posted by randilover
What Christianity has to offer is the explanation to what Burt kind of mentions above, the "point of our lives." There is something out there that demands in us something we demand of others (fairness, etc.), but so often we can/do not meet on our own. Christianity offers the greatest answer to the origin of the problem, that God is a personal God, and how the demands of that law are met and satisfied. That's why I am a Christian. The others do not come close.
Christianity is elitism at it's finest. My way or the highway. How is that personal? I find Christianity one of the least accepting of others of all the religions on the planet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randilover
Just like to add a note that let's be after the truth. "If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair." -C.S. Lewis
Great quote, doesn't help you make your point in any way IMO however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randilover
And one final thing, the Scientology is whacked. Valencia had me cracking up. Did the Xenu alien picture have you creeped out or what?
Was that info not a great laugh or what. And to think, many of Hollywood's stars (Tom Cruise anyone) buy into this.
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Old June 29th, 2005, 08:06 AM   #22
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Mike,

Just got in this morning and haven't read your post above (from last night). But, I have some things to chew on for a while. I will be leaving in 10 minutes and out until about 4 today.

First of all, there is nothing I can say here that can convince you one way or the other about Christianity. As you know, I too am a Christian. Because you can not come to an intellectual decision on Christianity. It takes a leap of faith. You have the ability, but the decision to make that leap is each persons decision. The closest I have found to an intellectual case for Christ is just that... "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (sp?). He's an attorney who shows the evidence of Christ is who He said He is. Read it, please.

I cannot explain everything - no one can. If they say they can, they're trying to sell you something. Examples...'why do bad things happen to good people' I have my hypothesis and beliefs, and I will share them later (not enough time or space now).

You talked about other historical data that shares the same information of the Bible. This also strengthens the validity of the Bible - instead of just brushing it off as written by a bunch of people trying to control the masses... once again. big discussion for another time.

Two main differences between Christianity and every other religion that is out there (that I've seen or heard of): 1) all other religions have us seeking the god(s), while Christianity is the only religion that has God seeking us and wanting to have a relationship with us; 2) all other religions dictate the only way to 'heaven', avalon, happy hunting grounds, etc is through 'works' (what you have to do to 'earn' entrance), while Christianity is the ONLY religion where the only way in is by 'grace.' Accepting Christ.

As per the hypocrisy, it kept me away from Christ for 15+ years. I grew up Lutheran and turned my back on Christ due to the hypocrisy of many 'religious' people. However, I later understand a little more. If you recall Genesis (Eden), Adam and Eve failed to obey and fell from grace - and the world fell with them. This is not the world or people God created. We have that sin nature in us always because of Adam. However, if you accept Christ into your life, there is a new spirit in you. Note, however, I did not say the other one left. It's still there too. Imagine a large glass. when we were born, we were born into sin (pour in yellow water about 1/2 way). Then, if we accept Christ, He enters us as well (pour in 1/2 cup of blue water. The water turns green and this is how it is - we have BOTH natures in us (Christ and sin). The problem is, we have to CHOOSE to live as Christ and deny the sin nature that is in us. Not all people can do that long term. It's much easier to allow your sin nature to take over. It is at this point that people turn toward THEIR wants and needs and agendas, rather than Christs. And, that's when non-believers see only the bad and say "see, I knew Christians were full of it."
In addition, as a believer, I know there is spiritual warfare going on. If I believe in Christ and God, then I also have to accept the Devil is real and lurching (not like in the movies). Do you think he would not want to put a new believer 'back in line' and away from Christ. Is he not the prince of lies, temptation and deceit? The media also looks for Christians to 'fall' and blasts them for it - but other than Mother Theresa and a few others, they NEVER talk about all the blessing and good things that millions of believers do - why? It's not sensational to do the right thing and help out others. It sells when a pastor has an affair, etc.
Finally, now I really gotta go. Christianity is based on Love. as someone stated above, love the sinner, hate the sin. People strong in their walk understand and do this.
More later. I look forward to reading your above comments - hope I didn't repeat anything of anyone else and replying to your questions.

By the way, hey Jim! How ya doing?
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Old June 29th, 2005, 08:37 AM   #23
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
Christianity is elitism at it's finest. My way or the highway. How is that personal? I find Christianity one of the least accepting of others of all the religions on the planet.
First off Mike, I'm mostly in your camp. I think the Bible is the result of oral traditions being passed down for 1000+ years until it was eventually written down in a book. Obviously, to anyone who has played the telephone game, its obvious that oral traditions cannot be relied upon to the extent that they are deemed "the word of the Lord." Of course there may be some truth burried under all, or at least most of the stories (ie, a village near the Euphrates could have been wiped out when the river flooded leads to the tale of Noah's ark, two armies meet, and their champions fight, and the underdog wins leads to David and Goliath, etc), but to think these stories are holy in any way makes no sense to me. They are no different than the oral traditions of the American Indians, and hold no more relevance to answering the mysteries of the world.

That said, I do not think Christianity is the least accepting religion on the planet. Even though I was raised Lutheran, I cannot speak for Protestant denominations, but at least Catholics believe there is a place in heaven for Muslins, Jews, Buddhists, etc. Catholics do not believe you have to be Catholic, or even Christian, to get to heaven. That to me is not elitest.
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Old June 29th, 2005, 09:39 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers
First off Mike, I'm mostly in your camp. I think the Bible is the result of oral traditions being passed down for 1000+ years until it was eventually written down in a book. Obviously, to anyone who has played the telephone game, its obvious that oral traditions cannot be relied upon to the extent that they are deemed "the word of the Lord." Of course there may be some truth burried under all, or at least most of the stories (ie, a village near the Euphrates could have been wiped out when the river flooded leads to the tale of Noah's ark, two armies meet, and their champions fight, and the underdog wins leads to David and Goliath, etc), but to think these stories are holy in any way makes no sense to me. They are no different than the oral traditions of the American Indians, and hold no more relevance to answering the mysteries of the world.
We're shockingly in complete agreement here (for us to agree is very RARE indeed)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers
That said, I do not think Christianity is the least accepting religion on the planet. Even though I was raised Lutheran, I cannot speak for Protestant denominations, but at least Catholics believe there is a place in heaven for Muslins, Jews, Buddhists, etc. Catholics do not believe you have to be Catholic, or even Christian, to get to heaven. That to me is not elitest.
In fairness to Christianity as a whole, I should backtrack a bit and refocus that argument/claim against Born Again Christianity (generally Baptists and Protestants). That's the Christian religion I have the most experience with from childhood, and IMO, they are in general the biggest groups of hypocrits and/or least accepting in the Christian Church. They may say they're accpeting of others, but from what I've seen/experienced, no way.

Catholics are pretty acccomodatng to other religions, I find a Catholic service too ritualistic and boring. And what's with the Pope "writing" the weekly masses a year or years in advance? I can't say I've really experienced a Lutheran or Methodist church, so I'll let our Methodist minister here on the board tell us more about his sector of Christianity.

Anyhow, I guess most my negatism revolves around the Born Agains, those that say that UNLESS you accept "Christ" your doomed to hell and damnation. I've yet to meet a Born Again who will accept that there are other paths to "heaven" aside from being a Born Again Christian. THat to me is elitist. When a small segmant of the Earths population feels only THEIR way is the "true" way, and dismisses other beliefs or morals. Born Agains are generally the pushiest, least accepting group IMO. How many times have you had salvation tracts pushed in your face entering a sporting event, or left on counters, or in the grocery aisle, or a waiting room, etc. I've never met a group as judgmental as Born Agains.

So again, I'll focus the elitist argument against the Born Again segment of Chrisitanity and the Baptitst / Protestants.

In reality, I don't have big issues with Catholics, Lutherans, methodists... I just find no comfort / desire to hear their message.
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Old June 29th, 2005, 10:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez
First of all, there is nothing I can say here that can convince you one way or the other about Christianity. As you know, I too am a Christian. Because you can not come to an intellectual decision on Christianity. It takes a leap of faith. You have the ability, but the decision to make that leap is each persons decision. The closest I have found to an intellectual case for Christ is just that... "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (sp?). He's an attorney who shows the evidence of Christ is who He said He is. Read it, please.
Do I believe a Jesus Christ lived 2000 years ago, sure, there's enough evidence to support that. Is he the son of "God" eh, can't really say either way, sure it's apossibility, but not absolute. Get me an Amazon link to the book in question... if it's logical, and NOT preachy I'll read it, but if it's 200 pages of salvation, no thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez
I cannot explain everything - no one can. If they say they can, they're trying to sell you something. Examples...'why do bad things happen to good people' I have my hypothesis and beliefs, and I will share them later (not enough time or space now).
Didn't ask that question. Things happen, it's part of life. Spirituality IMO has little to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez
You talked about other historical data that shares the same information of the Bible. This also strengthens the validity of the Bible - instead of just brushing it off as written by a bunch of people trying to control the masses... once again. big discussion for another time.
Sorry, this IS the discussion IMO. The basis for all of Christianity is little more than a retelling / refitting of fables from thousands of years ealier, the same roots that many religions share.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez
Two main differences between Christianity and every other religion that is out there (that I've seen or heard of): 1) all other religions have us seeking the god(s), while Christianity is the only religion that has God seeking us and wanting to have a relationship with us; 2) all other religions dictate the only way to 'heaven', avalon, happy hunting grounds, etc is through 'works' (what you have to do to 'earn' entrance), while Christianity is the ONLY religion where the only way in is by 'grace.' Accepting Christ.
Right there you get to my whole argument AGAINST Christianity (Born Agains at least)... we're all doomed to hell and damnation unless we accept Christ and believe in Christ. So basically, what your saying is that other religious beliefs are flawed... 5 billion people in the world don't have a clue on "salvation", and even then, only the 1 billion or so "Christians" who "accept Christ" have a path to "heavan".

Are you going to tell me that that, cannot be considered "elitist and unnaccepting"? Granted, some Christians present it more humbly, but many are very in your face about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez
As per the hypocrisy, it kept me away from Christ for 15+ years. I grew up Lutheran and turned my back on Christ due to the hypocrisy of many 'religious' people. However, I later understand a little more. If you recall Genesis (Eden), Adam and Eve failed to obey and fell from grace - and the world fell with them. This is not the world or people God created. We have that sin nature in us always because of Adam. However, if you accept Christ into your life, there is a new spirit in you. Note, however, I did not say the other one left. It's still there too. Imagine a large glass. when we were born, we were born into sin (pour in yellow water about 1/2 way). Then, if we accept Christ, He enters us as well (pour in 1/2 cup of blue water. The water turns green and this is how it is - we have BOTH natures in us (Christ and sin). The problem is, we have to CHOOSE to live as Christ and deny the sin nature that is in us. Not all people can do that long term. It's much easier to allow your sin nature to take over. It is at this point that people turn toward THEIR wants and needs and agendas, rather than Christs. And, that's when non-believers see only the bad and say "see, I knew Christians were full of it."
In addition, as a believer, I know there is spiritual warfare going on. If I believe in Christ and God, then I also have to accept the Devil is real and lurching (not like in the movies). Do you think he would not want to put a new believer 'back in line' and away from Christ. Is he not the prince of lies, temptation and deceit? The media also looks for Christians to 'fall' and blasts them for it - but other than Mother Theresa and a few others, they NEVER talk about all the blessing and good things that millions of believers do - why? It's not sensational to do the right thing and help out others. It sells when a pastor has an affair, etc.
Sorry Steve, this did little for me to help your case. BTW, I get a kick out of this whole "Believer" / "Non-Believer" schtick. It's an internal term used to label others in a derogatory way IMO (no offense). i.e. He is one of us, because he "believes", but that Preds... he's NOT one of us... he's a "non-believer" oooh, I just got shudders typing that! ;)

Anyhow, are many / most Christians be good people? Absolutely. Do they do good? Without a doubt. Does the press focus on the negative, unfortunately yes. Do I let the press focus my belief system? Nope. But for every "good' Christian, I can probably point out just as many (probably far more) good people that are "not" Christians.

IMO, people are inherently good, not bad. There is a drving source within us to be good people, but unfortunately, some sick twisted minds seek to do the opposite.

I think religion of any nature, is more of a search to find an answer to a question that doesn't need an answer. Why are we here? Because we are. Just like in the bible "Yahweh = I am", it is what it is. Philosophers have sought an explanation for eons. Do we need one? Scientifically, there is some evidence to trace our lineage, but why us, why Earth? Are there other planets with life, IMO probably. The Universe is too big to rule it out IMO. Maybe Scientology and Xenu is the answer , I highly, HIGHLY doubt it, but anything is possible! Personally, I just don't have the desire to really care Why. It just is.

God IMO, is likely not an individual or a spiritual being, it's a "force" within the entire Universe. Every living creature is a part of this "force". Is God cognizant or thoughtful, who am I to say. I cannot explain what God even is, much less who or if he is. Nobody can.

I think Brett said it well when he stated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valencia
I believe that there are many paths in life. The most important one is the path to becoming a good human being. I am still working hard on finding my way, but that is what I believe "life is all about".
I pretty much agree with this statement wholeheartedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez
Finally, now I really gotta go. Christianity is based on Love. as someone stated above, love the sinner, hate the sin. People strong in their walk understand and do this.
While some segmants of Christianity preach love and acceptance, unfortunately many Christians don't adhere.
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Last edited by Preds; June 29th, 2005 at 10:12 AM.
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Old June 29th, 2005, 10:18 AM   #26
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

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We're shockingly in complete agreement here (for us to agree is very RARE indeed)!
Mark down the date. It may be a while before it happens again.

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Originally Posted by Preds
In fairness to Christianity as a whole, I should backtrack a bit and refocus that argument/claim against Born Again Christianity (generally Baptists and Protestants). That's the Christian religion I have the most experience with from childhood, and IMO, they are in general the biggest groups of hypocrits and/or least accepting in the Christian Church. They may say they're accpeting of others, but from what I've seen/experienced, no way.
I really don't know if there is a strict definition of born again. I have a friend who was athiest for a while, then agnostic, and now recently was confirmed (or whatever the term is for it) Catholic. I don't know if that fits the definition of born again, but his views are certainly inclusive. I think a number of Protestant demoninations (and at this point I should say you cannot really group schools of thought as simply as Lutheran, Methodist, Baptist, etc, since their views can range so greatly) are too exclusive, not accepting another denominations baptism for example, but others are similar to Catholicism in their acceptance. Now I'm rambling and lost my train of thought, so I'll go on to the next point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
Catholics are pretty acccomodatng to other religions, I find a Catholic service too ritualistic and boring. And what's with the Pope "writing" the weekly masses a year or years in advance?.
I prefer the ritual to new age services. My sister is a Baptist and they go to the modern service. I just can't feel like I am in church when there is a three piece band on stage playing, which leads into a multi media presentation of some message from the Bible. I also prefer, if I had to choose, Catholicism (no offense Jim, set me straight where I am wrong) since they are the least strict in their interpretation of the historical accuracies of the Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds
In reality, I don't have big issues with Catholics, Lutherans, methodists... I just find no comfort / desire to hear their message.
I hear that. Though, I will say I have no problem discussing the ideas of theology with a believer, as long as they can accept that neither one of us will know the truth until we're dead. Those that refuse to acknowledge another point of view could be correct starts the discussion without a logical foundation, in my opinion.
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Old June 29th, 2005, 10:25 AM   #27
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

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I hear that. Though, I will say I have no problem discussing the ideas of theology with a believer, as long as they can accept that neither one of us will know the truth until we're dead. Those that refuse to acknowledge another point of view could be correct starts the discussion without a logical foundation, in my opinion.
:dammit, another point we agree on!
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Old June 29th, 2005, 04:11 PM   #28
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

It's optimistic to think that any of us will know the truth even when we're dead.

Man, I really don't have time to get into this: deadlines at work, no internet at home. I was raised Southern Baptist (in northern Illinois) so I can go on and on about hypocrisy if you want. I also went to a charismatic Christian church in college (with the band and everything) and I have big bones to pick there. Catholics, Lutherans, Pentacostals, oh my!

Let me just share my Quick Litmus Test for self-proclaimed Christians. Will they use the catchphrase "Love thy neighbor" to sum up their morals? BZZZZZZT, they fail the test. They obviously haven't read the sermon on the mount lately, Jesus' most direct teaching to his followers, which should be the foundation of Christian morality*:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?"

The Baptists you're complaining about (and I agree with you), judged solely by their actions, demonstrate a disbelief in this teaching. Yet this core idea is what makes Christianity great and, to my knowledge, unique, and why I can't walk away from it despite my doubts.

Anyway, my point in brief: please separate your criticisms of Christianity from your criticisms of so-called Christians.

Damn, I wish I had all day to write about this.

*Usually usurped by belief in the divinity of Christ.
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Old June 29th, 2005, 04:49 PM   #29
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

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Damn, I wish I had all day to write about this.
:agree . I don't have time to really discuss this. I like the feedback. and I agree with much else of what you said.:GoodPost
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Old June 29th, 2005, 05:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Theology Discussion?

Wow, there's a lot going back and forth here. I will address what I can from where I left off, I guess, and try to touch the larger points:

1) All Religions CANNOT be the same. At their core, each religion is different. (And at this point I am not differentiating between Chrisitian denominations.) Yes, Islam and Christianity are all monotheistic, however, the similarities end there. Islam, for one, differs on the matter of sin and redemption, which is a core element, if not the core. It is also fundamentally irreconcilable with Christianity on the naute of God. Islam is Allah, Christians believe in a trinity. These conflict with each, so how can one be valid and the other valid as well? Hinduism is polytheistic, with more gods than there are people. And Buddhism is, for all intent and purposes, basically atheistic, just very spiritual. However, each of these all have ancient literature, are highly spiritual, etc., but these are marginal issues. At their core they can not co-exist.

I heard a great quote today: "It is more logically possible that all the religions in the world are wrong than that all the religions are right." Meaning, there are inherently different ideas and doctines in each one that would make the other irreconcilable with itself.

2) Elitism. This is kind of addressed in my above comment. First, Christianity, like hypocrites, doesn’t corner the market on exclusion. There is almost no major religion that is inclusive, and by definition, there is nothing wrong with exclusion. Islam is an exclusive religion (most of the time to your physical peril). Hinduism has done more damage with its caste system than Christianity has ever been able to do when it was in it’s most deviate form. Those would be elitist.

When Jesus made his exclusive statement, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes unto the Father except through me," it is a reasonable statement. The question is, "Is it true?" Truth by definition is exclusive. When you affirm something, you exclude anything that contradicts that. In a basic way, acceptance is a moot point. If I had the cure for cancer or AIDS sitting on my desk right now, all you have to do is come here to get it. Would you say, "That’s too inclusive, it’s too narrow, there has to be another way," or, to save someone yourself or someone you love, you spent every cent you have just to get the next plane to Philly to get the cure.

Christianity asserts people have a sin problem. When you have a plumbing problem, you get a plumber. When you have an electrical problem, you get a electrician. When you have a sin problem, you get a savior. Christianity is the one that asserts Jesus (and he did so himself) to be the "cure."


3) Hypocrisy. I like what the Unded is saying. All major religions are stock full of hypocrites, we just live in a mostly Christian society. However, it does not invalidate what is asserted by Christ himself as the crux of the religion (and in someways validates what most of the New Testament of the Bible claims, that men are sinners, and even as Christians, stuggle against what is termed the sin nature).


Last but not least, to address your point earlier, Preds:
For my quote:
"If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair." -C.S. Lewis
This does really help my point. There are things that are true, meaning the opposite can not be true, these need to be pursued. All the talk on exclusivity, hypocrites vs. the religion itself, etc., can be uncomfortable, but that in no way invalidates its truth. If it is true, it must be dealt with, but if you go searching for the one that is least uncomfortable, you will be left with little else than "despair."

Just some thoughts. I'll have to address the validity of the Bible later on. As for Rami's book, it's one of the best on addressing some of the hardest questions asked of Christianity. There's another as well, "The Case for Faith." Just as good. It is an atheistic journalist who set out to debunk Christianity, winds up getting converted. It's not heady at all, reads very easily.

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