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View Poll Results: Should we talk some Theology or not? | |||
Yup, just don't take it personal or lose respect | 12 | 92.31% | |
Nopes, stick to Fantasy Football | 1 | 7.69% | |
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll |
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June 23rd, 2005, 06:07 PM | #1 |
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Civil / Religous Rights to Marriage Discussion
Before violating anyones trust, or insulting anyone, how do you guys feel about a thread debating theology?
Good? Bad? This board is about FF, keep religion and politics out of it? I know for a fact there are a lot of ahem "believers" out there, and probably just as many "unbelievers" (to borrow the title from Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant series). Personally, I'm agnostic, in large part due to a childhood of having born again Christianity jammed down my throat (kinda like the SAC'D rookie draft ;)), but I love a good debate... as long as folks don't take things personally, or think less of others because of what they believe. So what say you all... wanna play on this topic.... or should we lock it up?
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June 23rd, 2005, 09:42 PM | #2 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
I like any lively debate or discussion. It's like you say though... "No personal attacks or taking things too personal" Sometimes easier said than done.
Late, :valencia |
June 24th, 2005, 07:58 AM | #3 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
I think this would be interesting. Valencia has a good point. I think some things that are said may not be intended to 'probe too far' but many people have their radars turned up so high on the topic of religion that you even say "Jesus Christ" in any other vain than as a surprised statement or ticked off explosion, people get the jitters.
Mike, I'm actually not that far from you. I didn't have anything jammed down my throat, but I was raised in a going to church. My dad is very antagonistic when it comes to religion (still). My mom took my brother and me to church, but the church was hypocritical (very) - which turned me off for years. I was very anti-established religion for years. Until about eight years ago. Now, I am still growing in my walk, but know where I'm facing. I think a lot of what happens is sad in the name of religion. |
June 24th, 2005, 08:30 AM | #4 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 24th, 2005, 08:34 AM | #5 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 24th, 2005, 08:58 AM | #6 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Remember, if someone does say something in this discussion that offends you: "love the sinner, hate the sin." :angel
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June 24th, 2005, 09:11 AM | #7 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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I'm OUT! :p ;)
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June 24th, 2005, 12:46 PM | #8 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Like everyone else I am fine with the discussion thread being here.
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June 24th, 2005, 12:48 PM | #9 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
OK, Mike, I think we're getting resounding support for this topic to be addressed. What point would you like to make?
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June 24th, 2005, 05:04 PM | #10 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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And most of you know, being an ordained United Methodist minister, this is kind of my line of work... talking theology, not "jamming down throats," by the way. :rockon |
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June 24th, 2005, 06:18 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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If you MUST have a point to start off with, lets start with the collection of fables that Christians call the Bible... a warped collection of stories that have been repackaged into the Christian church's own version of reality (but IMO an innacurrate one). Saucy enough to get things started?
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June 24th, 2005, 06:19 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 25th, 2005, 12:23 AM | #13 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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I do agree that "bible thumping" is not what Christ intended when he instructed us to spread the good word. His examples were mostly of subtly pointing out the error of peoples ways, and helping them come to the same conclusion. The biggest problem I have with the belief that there is no higher being, is if not, then what is the point of our lives here? Why do we feel bad when we hurt others? Why not just live for ourselves, and not worry about anything else? I mean, what is the point if we just die and rot in the ground when this life is done? |
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June 25th, 2005, 08:29 AM | #14 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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I'm agnostic, not atheist. My problems revolve more around organized religion, and the sham that much (not all) of it is... and that's most religions, not just Christianity... it's just most my experience has been with Christianity, which again, IMO, is NOT the only answer.
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June 25th, 2005, 06:45 PM | #15 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
BTW... while I'm open to mutiple religous beliefs... this one aint one of them http://xenu.net/
Hubbard was WACKED! I may have to change my team name to the Thetans or Xenu or something. Read the Xenu leaflet... good stuff, great laugh. BTW, if any of you are a Scientologist, I apologize, but the Xenu story is quite funny to an "outsider."
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June 25th, 2005, 07:58 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 25th, 2005, 09:14 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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I was just wondering... :Shrug Does the external battery for the force-field have a little pink bunny w/a base drum on it? If so... I am buying some stock.. :bling The one thing that all religion has in common is the belief in a "Higher Power". I hate to rail on any single group(Scientology in this case), but some things are Laughable. Unfortunately, even this pompous attitude is dangerous. The one thing I have learned in life is... "you never know" I go back to some of my "Blackfoot" upbringing and I believe that there are many paths in life. The most important one is the path to becoming a good human being. I am still working hard on finding my way, but that is what I believe "life is all about". OK... let's get off the :soapbox I hope everyone is having a great weekend. Enjoy your family and loved ones. Life is short. Late, :valencia |
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June 28th, 2005, 04:54 PM | #18 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
surprised this has stalled from last week.
I think a lot of good things were brought up. I think Jim had one of best points, we're all messed up and hypocrites - whether we want to acknowledge it or not. The key is what do you do with that. I need to process some of what's said before I reply again. |
June 28th, 2005, 05:03 PM | #19 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
I think I scared folks off challenging the legitimacy of the bible, and following that up with Xenu and co.!
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June 28th, 2005, 06:05 PM | #20 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
It took me so long to respond, and this bore out from me and Preds IM'ing on the subject. I guess the easiest way to start is that I am a Christian. I believe there is a god, but not all religions are the same. Most people think that religions are different on the surface, but pretty much the same at the core. The opposite is true.
What Christianity has to offer is the explanation to what Burt kind of mentions above, the "point of our lives." There is something out there that demands in us something we demand of others (fairness, etc.), but so often we can/do not meet on our own. Christianity offers the greatest answer to the origin of the problem, that God is a personal God, and how the demands of that law are met and satisfied. That's why I am a Christian. The others do not come close. Just like to add a note that let's be after the truth. "If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair." -C.S. Lewis And one final thing, the Scientology is whacked. Valencia had me cracking up. Did the Xenu alien picture have you creeped out or what? |
June 28th, 2005, 06:16 PM | #21 | ||||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 29th, 2005, 08:06 AM | #22 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Mike,
Just got in this morning and haven't read your post above (from last night). But, I have some things to chew on for a while. I will be leaving in 10 minutes and out until about 4 today. First of all, there is nothing I can say here that can convince you one way or the other about Christianity. As you know, I too am a Christian. Because you can not come to an intellectual decision on Christianity. It takes a leap of faith. You have the ability, but the decision to make that leap is each persons decision. The closest I have found to an intellectual case for Christ is just that... "A Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (sp?). He's an attorney who shows the evidence of Christ is who He said He is. Read it, please. I cannot explain everything - no one can. If they say they can, they're trying to sell you something. Examples...'why do bad things happen to good people' I have my hypothesis and beliefs, and I will share them later (not enough time or space now). You talked about other historical data that shares the same information of the Bible. This also strengthens the validity of the Bible - instead of just brushing it off as written by a bunch of people trying to control the masses... once again. big discussion for another time. Two main differences between Christianity and every other religion that is out there (that I've seen or heard of): 1) all other religions have us seeking the god(s), while Christianity is the only religion that has God seeking us and wanting to have a relationship with us; 2) all other religions dictate the only way to 'heaven', avalon, happy hunting grounds, etc is through 'works' (what you have to do to 'earn' entrance), while Christianity is the ONLY religion where the only way in is by 'grace.' Accepting Christ. As per the hypocrisy, it kept me away from Christ for 15+ years. I grew up Lutheran and turned my back on Christ due to the hypocrisy of many 'religious' people. However, I later understand a little more. If you recall Genesis (Eden), Adam and Eve failed to obey and fell from grace - and the world fell with them. This is not the world or people God created. We have that sin nature in us always because of Adam. However, if you accept Christ into your life, there is a new spirit in you. Note, however, I did not say the other one left. It's still there too. Imagine a large glass. when we were born, we were born into sin (pour in yellow water about 1/2 way). Then, if we accept Christ, He enters us as well (pour in 1/2 cup of blue water. The water turns green and this is how it is - we have BOTH natures in us (Christ and sin). The problem is, we have to CHOOSE to live as Christ and deny the sin nature that is in us. Not all people can do that long term. It's much easier to allow your sin nature to take over. It is at this point that people turn toward THEIR wants and needs and agendas, rather than Christs. And, that's when non-believers see only the bad and say "see, I knew Christians were full of it." In addition, as a believer, I know there is spiritual warfare going on. If I believe in Christ and God, then I also have to accept the Devil is real and lurching (not like in the movies). Do you think he would not want to put a new believer 'back in line' and away from Christ. Is he not the prince of lies, temptation and deceit? The media also looks for Christians to 'fall' and blasts them for it - but other than Mother Theresa and a few others, they NEVER talk about all the blessing and good things that millions of believers do - why? It's not sensational to do the right thing and help out others. It sells when a pastor has an affair, etc. Finally, now I really gotta go. Christianity is based on Love. as someone stated above, love the sinner, hate the sin. People strong in their walk understand and do this. More later. I look forward to reading your above comments - hope I didn't repeat anything of anyone else and replying to your questions. By the way, hey Jim! How ya doing? |
June 29th, 2005, 08:37 AM | #23 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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That said, I do not think Christianity is the least accepting religion on the planet. Even though I was raised Lutheran, I cannot speak for Protestant denominations, but at least Catholics believe there is a place in heaven for Muslins, Jews, Buddhists, etc. Catholics do not believe you have to be Catholic, or even Christian, to get to heaven. That to me is not elitest. |
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June 29th, 2005, 09:39 AM | #24 | ||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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Catholics are pretty acccomodatng to other religions, I find a Catholic service too ritualistic and boring. And what's with the Pope "writing" the weekly masses a year or years in advance? I can't say I've really experienced a Lutheran or Methodist church, so I'll let our Methodist minister here on the board tell us more about his sector of Christianity. Anyhow, I guess most my negatism revolves around the Born Agains, those that say that UNLESS you accept "Christ" your doomed to hell and damnation. I've yet to meet a Born Again who will accept that there are other paths to "heaven" aside from being a Born Again Christian. THat to me is elitist. When a small segmant of the Earths population feels only THEIR way is the "true" way, and dismisses other beliefs or morals. Born Agains are generally the pushiest, least accepting group IMO. How many times have you had salvation tracts pushed in your face entering a sporting event, or left on counters, or in the grocery aisle, or a waiting room, etc. I've never met a group as judgmental as Born Agains. So again, I'll focus the elitist argument against the Born Again segment of Chrisitanity and the Baptitst / Protestants. In reality, I don't have big issues with Catholics, Lutherans, methodists... I just find no comfort / desire to hear their message.
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June 29th, 2005, 10:06 AM | #25 | |||||||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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Are you going to tell me that that, cannot be considered "elitist and unnaccepting"? Granted, some Christians present it more humbly, but many are very in your face about it. Quote:
Anyhow, are many / most Christians be good people? Absolutely. Do they do good? Without a doubt. Does the press focus on the negative, unfortunately yes. Do I let the press focus my belief system? Nope. But for every "good' Christian, I can probably point out just as many (probably far more) good people that are "not" Christians. IMO, people are inherently good, not bad. There is a drving source within us to be good people, but unfortunately, some sick twisted minds seek to do the opposite. I think religion of any nature, is more of a search to find an answer to a question that doesn't need an answer. Why are we here? Because we are. Just like in the bible "Yahweh = I am", it is what it is. Philosophers have sought an explanation for eons. Do we need one? Scientifically, there is some evidence to trace our lineage, but why us, why Earth? Are there other planets with life, IMO probably. The Universe is too big to rule it out IMO. Maybe Scientology and Xenu is the answer , I highly, HIGHLY doubt it, but anything is possible! Personally, I just don't have the desire to really care Why. It just is. God IMO, is likely not an individual or a spiritual being, it's a "force" within the entire Universe. Every living creature is a part of this "force". Is God cognizant or thoughtful, who am I to say. I cannot explain what God even is, much less who or if he is. Nobody can. I think Brett said it well when he stated Quote:
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June 29th, 2005, 10:18 AM | #26 | ||||
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 29th, 2005, 10:25 AM | #27 | |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
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June 29th, 2005, 04:11 PM | #28 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
It's optimistic to think that any of us will know the truth even when we're dead.
Man, I really don't have time to get into this: deadlines at work, no internet at home. I was raised Southern Baptist (in northern Illinois) so I can go on and on about hypocrisy if you want. I also went to a charismatic Christian church in college (with the band and everything) and I have big bones to pick there. Catholics, Lutherans, Pentacostals, oh my! Let me just share my Quick Litmus Test for self-proclaimed Christians. Will they use the catchphrase "Love thy neighbor" to sum up their morals? BZZZZZZT, they fail the test. They obviously haven't read the sermon on the mount lately, Jesus' most direct teaching to his followers, which should be the foundation of Christian morality*: "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?" The Baptists you're complaining about (and I agree with you), judged solely by their actions, demonstrate a disbelief in this teaching. Yet this core idea is what makes Christianity great and, to my knowledge, unique, and why I can't walk away from it despite my doubts. Anyway, my point in brief: please separate your criticisms of Christianity from your criticisms of so-called Christians. Damn, I wish I had all day to write about this. *Usually usurped by belief in the divinity of Christ. |
June 29th, 2005, 04:49 PM | #29 | |
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June 29th, 2005, 05:32 PM | #30 |
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Re: Theology Discussion?
Wow, there's a lot going back and forth here. I will address what I can from where I left off, I guess, and try to touch the larger points:
1) All Religions CANNOT be the same. At their core, each religion is different. (And at this point I am not differentiating between Chrisitian denominations.) Yes, Islam and Christianity are all monotheistic, however, the similarities end there. Islam, for one, differs on the matter of sin and redemption, which is a core element, if not the core. It is also fundamentally irreconcilable with Christianity on the naute of God. Islam is Allah, Christians believe in a trinity. These conflict with each, so how can one be valid and the other valid as well? Hinduism is polytheistic, with more gods than there are people. And Buddhism is, for all intent and purposes, basically atheistic, just very spiritual. However, each of these all have ancient literature, are highly spiritual, etc., but these are marginal issues. At their core they can not co-exist. I heard a great quote today: "It is more logically possible that all the religions in the world are wrong than that all the religions are right." Meaning, there are inherently different ideas and doctines in each one that would make the other irreconcilable with itself. 2) Elitism. This is kind of addressed in my above comment. First, Christianity, like hypocrites, doesn’t corner the market on exclusion. There is almost no major religion that is inclusive, and by definition, there is nothing wrong with exclusion. Islam is an exclusive religion (most of the time to your physical peril). Hinduism has done more damage with its caste system than Christianity has ever been able to do when it was in it’s most deviate form. Those would be elitist. When Jesus made his exclusive statement, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes unto the Father except through me," it is a reasonable statement. The question is, "Is it true?" Truth by definition is exclusive. When you affirm something, you exclude anything that contradicts that. In a basic way, acceptance is a moot point. If I had the cure for cancer or AIDS sitting on my desk right now, all you have to do is come here to get it. Would you say, "That’s too inclusive, it’s too narrow, there has to be another way," or, to save someone yourself or someone you love, you spent every cent you have just to get the next plane to Philly to get the cure. Christianity asserts people have a sin problem. When you have a plumbing problem, you get a plumber. When you have an electrical problem, you get a electrician. When you have a sin problem, you get a savior. Christianity is the one that asserts Jesus (and he did so himself) to be the "cure." 3) Hypocrisy. I like what the Unded is saying. All major religions are stock full of hypocrites, we just live in a mostly Christian society. However, it does not invalidate what is asserted by Christ himself as the crux of the religion (and in someways validates what most of the New Testament of the Bible claims, that men are sinners, and even as Christians, stuggle against what is termed the sin nature). Last but not least, to address your point earlier, Preds: For my quote: "If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end: if you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair." -C.S. Lewis This does really help my point. There are things that are true, meaning the opposite can not be true, these need to be pursued. All the talk on exclusivity, hypocrites vs. the religion itself, etc., can be uncomfortable, but that in no way invalidates its truth. If it is true, it must be dealt with, but if you go searching for the one that is least uncomfortable, you will be left with little else than "despair." Just some thoughts. I'll have to address the validity of the Bible later on. As for Rami's book, it's one of the best on addressing some of the hardest questions asked of Christianity. There's another as well, "The Case for Faith." Just as good. It is an atheistic journalist who set out to debunk Christianity, winds up getting converted. It's not heady at all, reads very easily. Last edited by randilover; June 29th, 2005 at 05:35 PM. |
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