Pred's Fantasy Football Forums

Go Back  Pred's Fantasy Football Forums > Feeding Frenzy - Fantasy Football League > Frenzy Rules & Bylaws
User Name
Password
Home Forums FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 9th, 2018, 03:04 AM   #1
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Playoff rule question...

1st of all...thanks for the recent rules update!

Now, 12B and 12C seem to be in conflict to me. The last playoff position is best all-play record, which is fine, but the tie breaker for said position is where there may be a potential issue. The current written rule says tie breaker for 6 spot is higher power rank. Shouldn't head-to-head be a 1st tie breaker or am I missing something? I seem to recall power rank was a previous determining factor that we removed. I would reckon the actual listed tie breakers written in Rule 12C be used as I believe this may have been original intent, again, unless I missed something.

Thank you for your consideration.

I don't think this is an issue requiring a vote as it just needs clarification due to conflicting written information and intent overrides conflict.
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2018, 03:13 AM   #2
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Unless you guys decided this 6th playoff spot deserves its own tie breaker system. Power ranking is not listed as a viable playoff tie breaker in 12C at all. I thought we removed power ranking from all consideration and was surprised to see it on there.
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2018, 08:46 AM   #3
Burt the Butcher
Supreme FF Dominator
 
Burt the Butcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Falcon, Colorado
Posts: 17,945
Burt the Butcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

In the vote done here:
http://www.predsff.com/forums/showth...=power+ranking

It does indeed state:
"This will simply replace the current 6th seed for the playoffs from being based on the Power ranking to being based on each teams overall All-Play Record. In the event of a Tie, each teams overall Power Ranking would be Tie-Breaker."

So the wording in the rules is indeed what we voted on.
__________________
What's the point in calling shots
His cue ain't straight in line
Cue balls made of Styrofoam
And no ones got the time


OUT---
Burt the Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2018, 08:33 PM   #4
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I guess my question then becomes...can we have a tie breaker for playoff position that is NOT listed as a tie breaker?? 12C lists all tie breakers. If it doesn't seem to be a problem with anyone else, then I will let it go and the written word will be the final say....just don't bitch at owners when they go by the written word in another situation down the road...

I know I can submit changes any time and they have to pass by different measures depending on when they were submitted...I got a list started...

Thank you for quick reply!
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2018, 10:44 AM   #5
Royal Hawaiian Opihi
Feeding Frenzy
 
Royal Hawaiian Opihi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 15,361
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I think the issue with "head to head" for the 6th spot is that by using the power ranking, it takes out of consideration the individual team record, and looks at how strong of a team they've had all season.
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2018, 08:25 PM   #6
Burt the Butcher
Supreme FF Dominator
 
Burt the Butcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Falcon, Colorado
Posts: 17,945
Burt the Butcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I am not sure where the issue is? Is it that the wording does not specify the tie breaker for the 6th seed is different than all other seeds tie breakers Chuck? I am a bit dense, so maybe I am not following along....
__________________
What's the point in calling shots
His cue ain't straight in line
Cue balls made of Styrofoam
And no ones got the time


OUT---
Burt the Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2018, 12:46 AM   #7
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Yep...12C specifically lists playoff tie breakers. I will write a clarifying suggestion for next year. I would just hate to see a tie go to the wrong team. We shall see how it goes.
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2018, 08:46 AM   #8
Preds
*****istrator
 
Preds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY
Posts: 17,122
Preds is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

The rules rewrite for 6th seed will were specifically voted on (and rewritten) for All Play record to be the determining factor for that seed, with the Tie-Breaker for the 6th seed falling back to overall Power Ranking. The 6th seed for over a decade had previously been based on Power Ranking as the primary determining factor. Individual H2H records were not the primary deciding factor.

The other tie-breaker rules are strictly for seeds 1-5 and H2H has no play in the 6th seed tie-breakers whatsoever (unless we decide we want to vote in more tie-breakers for the unlikely event of 2 teams having an exact same power ranking score (which is rare since it's down to decimal points and factors in so many other factors).
__________________
4x Frenzy Champs! 2003, 2005, 2013 & 2022* (* co-champs with Roosters)
Email: preds1@gmail.com
Cell: 716-481-8823
Preds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 12th, 2018, 06:46 PM   #9
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I get all that stuff about what we "used" to do...

Example 1...Preds and Opihi are tied in all play records and Opihi has a better power rank, but Pred is 2-0 vs Opihi on the year...you guys agree that Opihi gets the 6 seed???

Example 2...Pred and Emerald tie in all play records and Emerald has better power rank, but Pred won the head to head matchup...you guys agree that Emerald gets the 6 seed???

Regardless of what rule currently states, and all respect about what we "used" to do...I think power rank is an outdated measure that we obviously didn't want deciding a playoff spot and so shouldn't be used as a tie breaker...

I kind of see this as cleaning up a process...I know I didn't totally understand every aspect of this when we voted...with 2 teams tied for a playoff spot, H2H seems obvious to me...3 or more teams tied(all play) seems unlikely, but I could maybe see power rank having a purpose only in that situation...I am done explaining my point of view and will move on to appropriate means of revision for future seasons...
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)

Last edited by chasmvp19; August 12th, 2018 at 06:51 PM.
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2018, 12:09 PM   #10
Royal Hawaiian Opihi
Feeding Frenzy
 
Royal Hawaiian Opihi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 15,361
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I think the feeling was the 6th spot in the playoffs should be an "out of the box" selection. That's why power ranking was the determining factor... now it's all-play record. In my opinion, those both give teams that have been good-but-unlucky a shot at the playoffs.

So I have no problem with both examples you raise above as going to the teams who just happen to have the worse h2h record. It's an "out of the box selection."

Now, if the league wants to revisit it, fine. I'm just saying I think it's consistent with what we were trying to do for that last spot.
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 13th, 2018, 04:30 PM   #11
Preds
*****istrator
 
Preds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY
Posts: 17,122
Preds is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Hawaiian Opihi View Post
I think the feeling was the 6th spot in the playoffs should be an "out of the box" selection. That's why power ranking was the determining factor... now it's all-play record. In my opinion, those both give teams that have been good-but-unlucky a shot at the playoffs.

So I have no problem with both examples you raise above as going to the teams who just happen to have the worse h2h record. It's an "out of the box selection."

Now, if the league wants to revisit it, fine. I'm just saying I think it's consistent with what we were trying to do for that last spot.
well stated
__________________
4x Frenzy Champs! 2003, 2005, 2013 & 2022* (* co-champs with Roosters)
Email: preds1@gmail.com
Cell: 716-481-8823
Preds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2018, 03:39 AM   #12
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I'm not sure I am comfortable with "out of the box" when discussing playoffs and even more uncomfortable that only a few have spoken up with their thoughts...I would also like it if someone said they understood my concern...

I think maybe I should speak to Burt since he was the one who brought me in...sorry if I have been a pain...Burt I will try to get with you shortly this week...
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2018, 07:58 PM   #13
Royal Hawaiian Opihi
Feeding Frenzy
 
Royal Hawaiian Opihi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 15,361
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I understand your concern.
You're not a pain.
I was just letting you know what went into how we came up with this. That's all.
And like I said, if people want to change it, that's totally cool, too.

I just keep hearing my son's club soccer coach's voice. When we lost a close game and thought the referees had robbed us, or something unlucky happened near the end, she'd say, "Don't let it get that close next time." So... if we're talking about the 6th spot in the playoffs (and I know we ALL want to make the postseason and have a chance at the trophy), win your division and you're in. (I'm speaking to myself, too!)
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2018, 08:17 PM   #14
emerald
Feeding Frenzy
 
emerald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: South Bend, IN
Posts: 5,046
emerald is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Sorry I didn't weigh in... Jim summed up my opinion exactly. Even though whenever I stumble into the playoffs I am the last seed by luck I prefer the final spot going to the owner that played better but was unlucky on H2H matchups. Like Mike said if I play better and clinch an earlier seed it won't matter...
__________________
Every Fantasy Football League has 3 teams. If you look around and only see 2...
emerald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 14th, 2018, 10:19 PM   #15
emerald
Feeding Frenzy
 
emerald's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: South Bend, IN
Posts: 5,046
emerald is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I guess it was Jim that said play better but I'm sure Mike was thinking it.
__________________
Every Fantasy Football League has 3 teams. If you look around and only see 2...

Last edited by emerald; August 14th, 2018 at 10:21 PM.
emerald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2018, 11:12 AM   #16
Royal Hawaiian Opihi
Feeding Frenzy
 
Royal Hawaiian Opihi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 15,361
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by emerald View Post
i guess it was jim that said play better but i'm sure mike was thinking it.
lol
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2018, 11:59 AM   #17
Bounty Hunter
Feeding Frenzy
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Falcon Colorado
Posts: 6,845
Bounty Hunter is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I guess I'm an outlier on this (who would have thought that?). If I tied with a team for the 6th seed and i beat that team in H/H it wouldn't sit well with me.
Bounty Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2018, 12:11 PM   #18
Royal Hawaiian Opihi
Feeding Frenzy
 
Royal Hawaiian Opihi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 15,361
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounty Hunter View Post
I guess I'm an outlier on this (who would have thought that?). If I tied with a team for the 6th seed and i beat that team in H/H it wouldn't sit well with me.
It SHOULDN'T sit with with most of us... if we're competitive. But I guess I'm asking you to consider being "okay" with that, for the 6th spot only.

But if folks want to change it, it's not a hill I feel the need to die on.
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2018, 02:01 PM   #19
Preds
*****istrator
 
Preds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY
Posts: 17,122
Preds is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Prior to All Play being the 6th seed, it used to be just flat our Power Ranking. H2H record wasn't in play. The point of the rule from the beginning was to ignore a teams actual record and award the 6th spot by the actual overall strength of a team based on Power Ranking, and later changed to overall All Play record.

This was an effort to ignore individual H2H play and/or bad wins or bad beats such as a team finishing 2nd in points and losing to the team 1st in points in a week. By switching to All Play, for the 6th seed we're looking at performance against every other team in the league each week of the season. So in the above scenario where 2 loses to 1 for a week, they still have 10 wins against the rest of the league and moves them up in the All Play Rankings for the 6th seed should they continue to have strong weeks with bad H2H matchups.


I don't understand why individual H2H is an issue here, the point of awarding the 6th seed was to disregard individual H2H from the get go.
__________________
4x Frenzy Champs! 2003, 2005, 2013 & 2022* (* co-champs with Roosters)
Email: preds1@gmail.com
Cell: 716-481-8823
Preds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15th, 2018, 02:11 PM   #20
Royal Hawaiian Opihi
Feeding Frenzy
 
Royal Hawaiian Opihi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Palmdale, CA
Posts: 15,361
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Mike, I think the debate/question is just to help bring the newer owners up to speed on why it is what it is. That's all. As usual, anything can be changed... if someone wants to propose a rule change.
Royal Hawaiian Opihi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2018, 12:59 PM   #21
Burt the Butcher
Supreme FF Dominator
 
Burt the Butcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Falcon, Colorado
Posts: 17,945
Burt the Butcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

I voted yes, as I agree (SHOCKER I know) with Mike - that the 6th seed be rewarded to someone who had bad luck. I also understand you're concern Chuck, that we throw out H2H here. But my thought was, that suppose the one time I played you, you put up your best season score, while I had my consistent 2nd best score against high scoring team. While my overall season All Play record was better, thus reasoning be I had the more deserving team then you, other than our one contest which you bettered me in.

Anyways, that was my thinking for 6th seed only. Keeping H2H for other seedings makes sense to me.
__________________
What's the point in calling shots
His cue ain't straight in line
Cue balls made of Styrofoam
And no ones got the time


OUT---
Burt the Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16th, 2018, 03:36 PM   #22
chasmvp19
Feeding Frenzy
 
chasmvp19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: All over...but mainly AZ and CO...
Posts: 2,205
chasmvp19 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

All I'm saying is we all agreed that power rank was a poor indicator and now we are using it as a tie breaker...does that sound right? I don't believe it does...Mikes example is a prime reason to fall back on H2H, IMO....if I end up tied with another owner for a season long race to the 6 seed, why am I punished for a few unlucky weeks where my power rank dipped even though I beat my counterpart H2H??? It is only about our 2 teams at this point...I get where power rank can be use in a 3 or more tie breaker scenario...

We all decided power rank is archaic, but we still cling to it for some reason

Let me put it in poker terms to try one more time....

Burt and I both lose to Bobby (unlikely, I know, just bare with me) on the same hand...Burt has been killing it all night, monster stack and even knocks out half the field on his way to the final table, no one wants to go against him...I knock out no one and grind out the night just getting by...in our final hand, Bobby has quad aces, Burt has a full house, and I only have 2 pairs (kk, aa)...I enter the hand with 1 more chip than Burt and thus finish ahead of Burt no matter how powerful his night was or even his final hand....my point is that power or power rank is not a better indicator than H2H ever when your records are tied....oh, and quite lucky getting them quads at the final table Bobby..

All I'm identifying is that I see something that deserves our collective attention for following seasons...if after a vote, most of the league sees it different then at least it was voted on...informed majority rules...
__________________
No one can hear you scream in outer space...

2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up)

Last edited by chasmvp19; August 16th, 2018 at 03:52 PM.
chasmvp19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2018, 12:13 PM   #23
Burt the Butcher
Supreme FF Dominator
 
Burt the Butcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Falcon, Colorado
Posts: 17,945
Burt the Butcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Good point Chuck, and I see where you are coming from. Maybe neither Power Rank or H2H are good tie breakers. What would make more sense for everyone? How about Total Points scored for season? In your poker example, when two players are eliminated on same hand, the one with most chips before the hand has higher finish.
__________________
What's the point in calling shots
His cue ain't straight in line
Cue balls made of Styrofoam
And no ones got the time


OUT---
Burt the Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2018, 03:55 PM   #24
predator06
Feeding Frenzy
 
predator06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,114
predator06 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt the butcher View Post
good point chuck, and i see where you are coming from. Maybe neither power rank or h2h are good tie breakers. What would make more sense for everyone? How about total points scored for season? In your poker example, when two players are eliminated on same hand, the one with most chips before the hand has higher finish.
winner
predator06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17th, 2018, 05:37 PM   #25
Preds
*****istrator
 
Preds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hamburg, NY
Posts: 17,122
Preds is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Playoff rule question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasmvp19 View Post
All I'm saying is we all agreed that power rank was a poor indicator and now we are using it as a tie breaker...does that sound right? I don't believe it does...Mikes example is a prime reason to fall back on H2H, IMO....if I end up tied with another owner for a season long race to the 6 seed, why am I punished for a few unlucky weeks where my power rank dipped even though I beat my counterpart H2H??? It is only about our 2 teams at this point...I get where power rank can be use in a 3 or more tie breaker scenario...

We all decided power rank is archaic, but we still cling to it for some reason

Let me put it in poker terms to try one more time....

Burt and I both lose to Bobby (unlikely, I know, just bare with me) on the same hand...Burt has been killing it all night, monster stack and even knocks out half the field on his way to the final table, no one wants to go against him...I knock out no one and grind out the night just getting by...in our final hand, Bobby has quad aces, Burt has a full house, and I only have 2 pairs (kk, aa)...I enter the hand with 1 more chip than Burt and thus finish ahead of Burt no matter how powerful his night was or even his final hand....my point is that power or power rank is not a better indicator than H2H ever when your records are tied....oh, and quite lucky getting them quads at the final table Bobby..

All I'm identifying is that I see something that deserves our collective attention for following seasons...if after a vote, most of the league sees it different then at least it was voted on...informed majority rules...
Poker terms are all Greek to me!

Write up a poll and we can vote up, down or around. If you're just worried about new tie breaking language for after all-play, whatevs, have at it, I can be fine with either way TBH.

While your at it though, I'd love to see discussion on reseeding the playoff brackets.

Something unique like the 1 seed picking who they play of the 2 wild card winners after the bye, and 2 seed gets leftovers. And for Wild Card week 3 decides who they want between 5 or 6 and 4 gets the leftovers.
__________________
4x Frenzy Champs! 2003, 2005, 2013 & 2022* (* co-champs with Roosters)
Email: preds1@gmail.com
Cell: 716-481-8823
Preds is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RULE CHANGE: Eliminate Toilet Bowl draft bonanza *** RULE PASSES (tiebreak) *** Royal Hawaiian Opihi Frenzy Rules & Bylaws 49 November 18th, 2013 02:12 PM
Playoff Cut and Claim question emerald Frenzy Rules & Bylaws 4 December 5th, 2012 04:51 PM
Frenzy Rule Book update question emerald Frenzy League Chat 4 April 20th, 2010 03:37 PM
Regular Season FA Closed - Playoff FA open to playoff teams only Preds Frenzy Free Agency & the Waiver Wire 0 December 7th, 2003 10:00 AM
2003 Rule Change Proposals Nittany Dodgers Frenzy Rules & Bylaws 13 March 20th, 2003 08:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2000-2022 - Preds Fantasy Football Forums