August 9th, 2018, 03:04 AM | #1 |
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Playoff rule question...
1st of all...thanks for the recent rules update!
Now, 12B and 12C seem to be in conflict to me. The last playoff position is best all-play record, which is fine, but the tie breaker for said position is where there may be a potential issue. The current written rule says tie breaker for 6 spot is higher power rank. Shouldn't head-to-head be a 1st tie breaker or am I missing something? I seem to recall power rank was a previous determining factor that we removed. I would reckon the actual listed tie breakers written in Rule 12C be used as I believe this may have been original intent, again, unless I missed something. Thank you for your consideration. I don't think this is an issue requiring a vote as it just needs clarification due to conflicting written information and intent overrides conflict.
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August 9th, 2018, 03:13 AM | #2 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Unless you guys decided this 6th playoff spot deserves its own tie breaker system. Power ranking is not listed as a viable playoff tie breaker in 12C at all. I thought we removed power ranking from all consideration and was surprised to see it on there.
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August 9th, 2018, 08:46 AM | #3 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
In the vote done here:
http://www.predsff.com/forums/showth...=power+ranking It does indeed state: "This will simply replace the current 6th seed for the playoffs from being based on the Power ranking to being based on each teams overall All-Play Record. In the event of a Tie, each teams overall Power Ranking would be Tie-Breaker." So the wording in the rules is indeed what we voted on.
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August 9th, 2018, 08:33 PM | #4 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I guess my question then becomes...can we have a tie breaker for playoff position that is NOT listed as a tie breaker?? 12C lists all tie breakers. If it doesn't seem to be a problem with anyone else, then I will let it go and the written word will be the final say....just don't bitch at owners when they go by the written word in another situation down the road...
I know I can submit changes any time and they have to pass by different measures depending on when they were submitted...I got a list started... Thank you for quick reply!
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No one can hear you scream in outer space... 2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up) |
August 10th, 2018, 10:44 AM | #5 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I think the issue with "head to head" for the 6th spot is that by using the power ranking, it takes out of consideration the individual team record, and looks at how strong of a team they've had all season.
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August 10th, 2018, 08:25 PM | #6 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I am not sure where the issue is? Is it that the wording does not specify the tie breaker for the 6th seed is different than all other seeds tie breakers Chuck? I am a bit dense, so maybe I am not following along....
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August 11th, 2018, 12:46 AM | #7 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Yep...12C specifically lists playoff tie breakers. I will write a clarifying suggestion for next year. I would just hate to see a tie go to the wrong team. We shall see how it goes.
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August 11th, 2018, 08:46 AM | #8 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
The rules rewrite for 6th seed will were specifically voted on (and rewritten) for All Play record to be the determining factor for that seed, with the Tie-Breaker for the 6th seed falling back to overall Power Ranking. The 6th seed for over a decade had previously been based on Power Ranking as the primary determining factor. Individual H2H records were not the primary deciding factor.
The other tie-breaker rules are strictly for seeds 1-5 and H2H has no play in the 6th seed tie-breakers whatsoever (unless we decide we want to vote in more tie-breakers for the unlikely event of 2 teams having an exact same power ranking score (which is rare since it's down to decimal points and factors in so many other factors).
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August 12th, 2018, 06:46 PM | #9 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I get all that stuff about what we "used" to do...
Example 1...Preds and Opihi are tied in all play records and Opihi has a better power rank, but Pred is 2-0 vs Opihi on the year...you guys agree that Opihi gets the 6 seed??? Example 2...Pred and Emerald tie in all play records and Emerald has better power rank, but Pred won the head to head matchup...you guys agree that Emerald gets the 6 seed??? Regardless of what rule currently states, and all respect about what we "used" to do...I think power rank is an outdated measure that we obviously didn't want deciding a playoff spot and so shouldn't be used as a tie breaker... I kind of see this as cleaning up a process...I know I didn't totally understand every aspect of this when we voted...with 2 teams tied for a playoff spot, H2H seems obvious to me...3 or more teams tied(all play) seems unlikely, but I could maybe see power rank having a purpose only in that situation...I am done explaining my point of view and will move on to appropriate means of revision for future seasons...
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No one can hear you scream in outer space... 2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up) Last edited by chasmvp19; August 12th, 2018 at 06:51 PM. |
August 13th, 2018, 12:09 PM | #10 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I think the feeling was the 6th spot in the playoffs should be an "out of the box" selection. That's why power ranking was the determining factor... now it's all-play record. In my opinion, those both give teams that have been good-but-unlucky a shot at the playoffs.
So I have no problem with both examples you raise above as going to the teams who just happen to have the worse h2h record. It's an "out of the box selection." Now, if the league wants to revisit it, fine. I'm just saying I think it's consistent with what we were trying to do for that last spot. |
August 13th, 2018, 04:30 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Quote:
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August 14th, 2018, 03:39 AM | #12 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I'm not sure I am comfortable with "out of the box" when discussing playoffs and even more uncomfortable that only a few have spoken up with their thoughts...I would also like it if someone said they understood my concern...
I think maybe I should speak to Burt since he was the one who brought me in...sorry if I have been a pain...Burt I will try to get with you shortly this week...
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No one can hear you scream in outer space... 2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up) |
August 14th, 2018, 07:58 PM | #13 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I understand your concern.
You're not a pain. I was just letting you know what went into how we came up with this. That's all. And like I said, if people want to change it, that's totally cool, too. I just keep hearing my son's club soccer coach's voice. When we lost a close game and thought the referees had robbed us, or something unlucky happened near the end, she'd say, "Don't let it get that close next time." So... if we're talking about the 6th spot in the playoffs (and I know we ALL want to make the postseason and have a chance at the trophy), win your division and you're in. (I'm speaking to myself, too!) |
August 14th, 2018, 08:17 PM | #14 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Sorry I didn't weigh in... Jim summed up my opinion exactly. Even though whenever I stumble into the playoffs I am the last seed by luck I prefer the final spot going to the owner that played better but was unlucky on H2H matchups. Like Mike said if I play better and clinch an earlier seed it won't matter...
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August 14th, 2018, 10:19 PM | #15 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I guess it was Jim that said play better but I'm sure Mike was thinking it.
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Every Fantasy Football League has 3 teams. If you look around and only see 2... Last edited by emerald; August 14th, 2018 at 10:21 PM. |
August 15th, 2018, 11:12 AM | #16 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
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August 15th, 2018, 11:59 AM | #17 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I guess I'm an outlier on this (who would have thought that?). If I tied with a team for the 6th seed and i beat that team in H/H it wouldn't sit well with me.
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August 15th, 2018, 12:11 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Quote:
But if folks want to change it, it's not a hill I feel the need to die on. |
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August 15th, 2018, 02:01 PM | #19 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Prior to All Play being the 6th seed, it used to be just flat our Power Ranking. H2H record wasn't in play. The point of the rule from the beginning was to ignore a teams actual record and award the 6th spot by the actual overall strength of a team based on Power Ranking, and later changed to overall All Play record.
This was an effort to ignore individual H2H play and/or bad wins or bad beats such as a team finishing 2nd in points and losing to the team 1st in points in a week. By switching to All Play, for the 6th seed we're looking at performance against every other team in the league each week of the season. So in the above scenario where 2 loses to 1 for a week, they still have 10 wins against the rest of the league and moves them up in the All Play Rankings for the 6th seed should they continue to have strong weeks with bad H2H matchups. I don't understand why individual H2H is an issue here, the point of awarding the 6th seed was to disregard individual H2H from the get go.
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August 15th, 2018, 02:11 PM | #20 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Mike, I think the debate/question is just to help bring the newer owners up to speed on why it is what it is. That's all. As usual, anything can be changed... if someone wants to propose a rule change.
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August 16th, 2018, 12:59 PM | #21 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
I voted yes, as I agree (SHOCKER I know) with Mike - that the 6th seed be rewarded to someone who had bad luck. I also understand you're concern Chuck, that we throw out H2H here. But my thought was, that suppose the one time I played you, you put up your best season score, while I had my consistent 2nd best score against high scoring team. While my overall season All Play record was better, thus reasoning be I had the more deserving team then you, other than our one contest which you bettered me in.
Anyways, that was my thinking for 6th seed only. Keeping H2H for other seedings makes sense to me.
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August 16th, 2018, 03:36 PM | #22 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
All I'm saying is we all agreed that power rank was a poor indicator and now we are using it as a tie breaker...does that sound right? I don't believe it does...Mikes example is a prime reason to fall back on H2H, IMO....if I end up tied with another owner for a season long race to the 6 seed, why am I punished for a few unlucky weeks where my power rank dipped even though I beat my counterpart H2H??? It is only about our 2 teams at this point...I get where power rank can be use in a 3 or more tie breaker scenario...
We all decided power rank is archaic, but we still cling to it for some reason Let me put it in poker terms to try one more time.... Burt and I both lose to Bobby (unlikely, I know, just bare with me) on the same hand...Burt has been killing it all night, monster stack and even knocks out half the field on his way to the final table, no one wants to go against him...I knock out no one and grind out the night just getting by...in our final hand, Bobby has quad aces, Burt has a full house, and I only have 2 pairs (kk, aa)...I enter the hand with 1 more chip than Burt and thus finish ahead of Burt no matter how powerful his night was or even his final hand....my point is that power or power rank is not a better indicator than H2H ever when your records are tied....oh, and quite lucky getting them quads at the final table Bobby.. All I'm identifying is that I see something that deserves our collective attention for following seasons...if after a vote, most of the league sees it different then at least it was voted on...informed majority rules...
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No one can hear you scream in outer space... 2017 Frenzy Bowl (Runner-Up) Last edited by chasmvp19; August 16th, 2018 at 03:52 PM. |
August 17th, 2018, 12:13 PM | #23 |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Good point Chuck, and I see where you are coming from. Maybe neither Power Rank or H2H are good tie breakers. What would make more sense for everyone? How about Total Points scored for season? In your poker example, when two players are eliminated on same hand, the one with most chips before the hand has higher finish.
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August 17th, 2018, 03:55 PM | #24 | |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Quote:
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August 17th, 2018, 05:37 PM | #25 | |
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Re: Playoff rule question...
Quote:
Write up a poll and we can vote up, down or around. If you're just worried about new tie breaking language for after all-play, whatevs, have at it, I can be fine with either way TBH. While your at it though, I'd love to see discussion on reseeding the playoff brackets. Something unique like the 1 seed picking who they play of the 2 wild card winners after the bye, and 2 seed gets leftovers. And for Wild Card week 3 decides who they want between 5 or 6 and 4 gets the leftovers.
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