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Old January 20th, 2004, 07:47 PM   #1
Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers
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Default Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

I never liked the concept of sign and trade deals. To me it is almost like two teams working together to limit the market price of a player.

For example, say I have an RFA that team X is interested in. He is in a bidding war with team Y and at the current price there's no way I would keep this player. Team Y currently has the highest bid, I talk to team X and tell him not to bid up the player any longer, I'll resign him and then trade him to team X for a nominal draft pick or something in return.

This is almost like collusion in the sense that it keeps the true market price of the player low. I'm not sure how other owners feel about this. We could come up with some rules where you cannot trade an RFA you just signed for a disclosed period of time. I think the NBA has a similar rule where teams that resign their RFA cannot trade him for a period of 60 days. Thoughts?
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Old January 20th, 2004, 08:07 PM   #2
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Well I know I've done this several times (as have SEVERAL other teams), usually sending talent and or picks (generally not nominal) to the owner of the RFA if he agrees not to match the winning offer, and I personally don't see the problem with it. It's win win, I get the player I want, and the original team gets something for his RFA (instead of nothing). These cases generally evolve once a player's cost starts to sky rocket, and I will then attempt to contact the owner in an attempt to gain some cost certainty. I mean realistically, if the players salary was sold artifically low the original team would match and keep the bargain.

I know a couple of times I've done this while I was the leading bidder, just to ensure that the player wouldn't be matched.

I guess the team that loses out is a team that wins a bid but didn't make a deal, and the player gets matched and sent elsewhere, but how many times has that actually happened. And even when it does the bidding team knew there was no certainty in getting the player.

NFL teams get compensated with draft picks from the NFL when they lose RFA's signed to qualifying contracts, this isn't much different. In fact, it's smart team management, trying to milk everything you can for any player you may be forced to lose due to cost constraints.

I just don't buy the argument of collusion, or artificially lowering salaries. I'll put the argurment out there that for the most part, RFA's are overpaid as a whole, generally because the bidding for RFA's is so intense and focused. Very few slip through at a bargain, almost none in fact.
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Old January 21st, 2004, 09:28 AM   #3
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I think you two guys are talking about two different scenarios. However, I am generally of the opinion that too much wheeling and dealing goes on with the RFAs. Unfortunately, I think it would be too hard to police. I am not sure how many times the situations the Squirrell Chasers have illustrated have happened, but I think if it was frequent, the unfairness of the situation is obvious. These deals aren't always adverstised (sometimes they are), so teams could be in a situation where they feel they need to offer a bribe in addition to the highest bid on an RFA. I don't think the purpose of the RFA was to give teams leverage on these players, other than first rights to matching their highest bid.

Maybe one solution would be that RFAs cannot be traded prior to the start of in season free agency. If a team losses an RFA, they could get a compensatory draft pick based on some variable. Possibly RFAs for over $3000 get a 1st rounder, 2000-2999 get a 2nd rounder, 1000-1999 get a 3rd rounder, and under 1000 get a 4th rounder (addition pick after all 3rd rounders). These draft picks would allotted after the normal draft picks for that round.

We could also outlaw the trading of any draft picks or other compensation for the non-matching of RFAs, as this is essentially trading the rights of RFAs.

Just an idea.
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Old January 21st, 2004, 12:39 PM   #4
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Mike, simply by trying to contain salaries that have "sky-rocketed" you are limiting the market price. In any auction system it only takes 2 players to drive a price up. Who's to say that player is not worth X amount to that team? Would it be any different if it were a UFA? What if I were in a bidding war with another team and agreed to send a pick if they stopped bidding? Would anyone have a problem with this?

As for your comparison to the NFL compensatory picks, I would argue it is different because those rules are outlined from the beggining. Any team bidding on another team's RFA knows that if that player signs with them, they will have to give up draft picks to the team with the RFA rights. They know this before even attempting to sign the player.

In my example above Team Y is getting screwed. Lets say for example team Y has alot of cap space left but no roster talent or draft picks available to trade. All he can do is bid for RFAs and UFAs to improve his team. Team X has picks to trade so he makes that deal with the RFA's team and sends some draft picks for the RFA that was just matched. Team Y is cannot counter offer because all he has is cap space, but he would have certainly outbid any other team for that player. Now he's lost the player he really wanted and has all this cap space left to spend. What will happen is he'll just overspend for another player.

Any time there's a player that isnt signed at the correct market price, the whole league loses out (one of the main reasons why I'm cutting Alexander). As stated in previous threads, it inflates the value of other players and you'll see overpriced salaries.

As the Dodgers stated the RFA tag was instituted to give teams the ability to resign certain free agents, not negotiating leverage.
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Old January 21st, 2004, 01:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers
In my example above Team Y is getting screwed. Lets say for example team Y has alot of cap space left but no roster talent or draft picks available to trade. All he can do is bid for RFAs and UFAs to improve his team. Team X has picks to trade so he makes that deal with the RFA's team and sends some draft picks for the RFA that was just matched. Team Y is cannot counter offer because all he has is cap space, but he would have certainly outbid any other team for that player. Now he's lost the player he really wanted and has all this cap space left to spend. What will happen is he'll just overspend for another player.
This is a valid point. Not sure how often it's happened, however... but it does impact the league. Team Y could be willing to go much higher to retain the services of a highly-sought-after player.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 12:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

FYI - this is the discussion from 15 years ago that lead to RFA restrictions.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 12:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

I believe this discussion also lead to the Compensation picks as well. Originally there was no compensation for declined RFAs.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 03:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

I understand all this discussion...

My point is that my players are mine to do what I want with them, period. (Obviously within the confines of the rules)

For instance...Opihi won Thielen while I stopped bidding, no collusion, but I actually thought Bee would match...anyway, if I offer Opihi both my 2nd round draft picks for Thielen - we should be able to do this after he assigns contract years. These are our legally owned assets to maneuver however we see fit.

Now I could see a matching owner being forced to wait because the RFA was effectively pulled off the open market and deemed a keeper...
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Old May 8th, 2019, 03:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

There was no compensation system before the RFA restrictions were put in place. Are you willing to forgo compensation picks?
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Old May 8th, 2019, 04:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

No...

I guess I have a hard time believing that even if collusion existed that it is wrong on a won RFA...there are too many owners bidding that it matters...

Now a matched RFA would be something different...does that make sense??? You put him as a RFA because he had value and the bids completed and you decided to keep him...so keep him...

A won RFA player (match declined) is different to me because the original owner is out of the collusion mix and every other owner had a chance to express their desire for said player at whatever cost...

All I can do is express my opinion and put it out there...pass or fail at least I did something other than complain...I hope more owners follow suit - don't just bring us your problems, provide a solution or open a discussion where we can help identify possible solutions...
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Old May 8th, 2019, 04:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Preds View Post
There was no compensation system before the RFA restrictions were put in place. Are you willing to forgo compensation picks?
I do not get this argument...the person winning the RFA is not the person who gets the compensation picks.

Speaking of comp picks though, one issue I see in allowing trading of the RFA before the Rookie Draft, is the comp draft picks have not been assigned yet, thus we do not have all our ammo yet.

I wasn't around when this was all going on, so not sure what shady dealings were happening, so cannot comment on whether we still need to have this rule in effect to deal with it.

I mean we can still do some shady negotiations, right? You big my 1st round RFA and I'll bid on your 1st round RFA, and we can both get 1st round comp, and a top tier player if both decline.

So there are always ways to get around rules.

I would go for opening up trading of RFA's. I would prefer at a minimum not until after RFA period is done, but can see Chuck's point that once we own the player, he's our property to do with what we may.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 04:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

The RFA restrictions were put in place and compensation system was developed because teams (not just me) were creatively negotiating with the tagging team to match or decline players and give them compensation in exchange. In some cases it meant the team offering pics would stop bidding (which thereby reduced the market for the player), then the tendering team would match and trade other player away for compensation.

There were also cases where teams declined players in exchange for compensation from the winning bidder.

The solution was to create a RFA compensation system, and RFA's to teams for the summer so that they HAD to integrate the player won into their off-season cap plans, or release said player as a UFA.

It was a workable solution to the issue many had issues with at the time, even though it was openly done and not forbidden in the rules at the time.

I personally think it would be ok to relax the rules in some way, but don't want to see teams creating a trade market by bidding on players then trading them away, or matching only to then trade away and get both the comp pics and the trade compensation at some point.

My suggestion relax the rules by allowing Matching teams to trade RFA's prior to the draft ONLY if they give up the draft pic compensation (can get messy tracking) AND pay a 20% penalty as another team suggested, while also locking said player the rest of the off-season if not traded prior to the draft.

As for teams winning declined players, I like the idea of allowing trades to any team that wasn't involved in the bidding without any penalties, or pay a penalty (maybe 30% split between the acquiring and trading teams) to trade a player to a team that was involved in the bidding.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 05:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

I get all this discussion and I like it...I would like to see something waaaaay more simple to solve that owners can wrap their head around and agree to.

I see matched RFA as more of a potential issue than declined RFA...

We are close to closing the rule change I posted as only a few more votes will make it stay as it is currently written. So be it. At least now I know why and where we could go in the future...

Best of luck to all the rest of the off season...
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Old May 8th, 2019, 05:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

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I get all this discussion and I like it...I would like to see something waaaaay more simple to solve that owners can wrap their head around and agree to.

I see matched RFA as more of a potential issue than declined RFA...

We are close to closing the rule change I posted as only a few more votes will make it stay as it is currently written. So be it. At least now I know why and where we could go in the future...

Best of luck to all the rest of the off season...
There is no reason a new vote can't be put up after more discussion. Just saying. Open dialogue and ideas are good.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 05:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

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Originally Posted by Preds View Post

I personally think it would be ok to relax the rules in some way, but don't want to see teams creating a trade market by bidding on players then trading them away, or matching only to then trade away and get both the comp pics and the trade compensation at some point.

My suggestion relax the rules by allowing Matching teams to trade RFA's prior to the draft ONLY if they give up the draft pic compensation (can get messy tracking) AND pay a 20% penalty as another team suggested, while also locking said player the rest of the off-season if not traded prior to the draft.
I am not following along with this logic....if the owning team Matches their RFA they do not get compensation, so how would they get both?

If they DECLINE and get compensation, and they trade for the player, they are giving up something, and would think it would balance out.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 05:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

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I am not following along with this logic....if the owning team Matches their RFA they do not get compensation, so how would they get both?

If they DECLINE and get compensation, and they trade for the player, they are giving up something, and would think it would balance out.
OK so prohibit teams who receive comp pics on declined players from trading for players they declined until the end of the off-season. Easy solution to that loophole.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 07:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

Prohibit until after draft I would say...

AND Matched RFAs have to stay on team until after draft...

How does that work???

So the total is declining owner can't trade for lost RFA until after draft (minimum) and matching owner can't trade RFA until after draft also.

This handles all RFA possibilities and doesn't handcuff an owner for an extended period unreasonably.
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Old May 8th, 2019, 09:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

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Prohibit until after draft I would say...

AND Matched RFAs have to stay on team until after draft...

How does that work???

So the total is declining owner can't trade for lost RFA until after draft (minimum) and matching owner can't trade RFA until after draft also.

This handles all RFA possibilities and doesn't handcuff an owner for an extended period unreasonably.
I would not be in favor unless comp picks go poof. No comp picks should be allowed if you can silly billy trade RFA’s. That’s what got us here in the first place 15 years ago.

IMO, there needs to be some pain for teams involved in trading for RFAs in the off-season, especially if you keep comp picks (which again I’d be against with your proposal).
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Old May 9th, 2019, 09:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

I still do not see how penalizing the RFA owner for allowing the winner to trade their RFA ties together other than only because it was instituted at same time?

I would be for allowing trades of RFA's after rookie draft, and also keeping existing trade ban in place for trades between winning bidder, and team that owned the RFA rights. Seems like good compromise to me.
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Old May 9th, 2019, 09:45 AM   #20
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

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I still do not see how penalizing the RFA owner for allowing the winner to trade their RFA ties together other than only because it was instituted at same time?

I would be for allowing trades of RFA's after rookie draft, and also keeping existing trade ban in place for trades between winning bidder, and team that owned the RFA rights. Seems like good compromise to me.
Having the trade ban is a deterrent to overbidding on multiple players.

Even waiting until after the draft it's not enough of a deterrent to keep teams from overbidding on players either recklessly or with the intent to trade the player for additional assets.

Allowing teams to trade RFA's early in the off-season when they're flush with CBs to play with allows teams to manipulate the market.

The current system is clearly a deterrent, and combined with the comp picks has worked well for 15 years.

I can see lessening the restrictions to a small degree in a manner like I suggested (which combined with Zombies suggestion of a cap hit), but in no way can I support the free wheeling of RFA's before or after the draft without eliminating compensation picks and going back to the Wild Wild West days of the early years of the league.
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Old May 9th, 2019, 10:26 AM   #21
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Default Re: Off-Season Rules Discussion - sign and trade deals

I can understand your argument against trading - but I still see compensation as completely separate issue. All your points against are only for trading aspect. Do not see how removing compensation picks will have any impact on your reservations to eliminated trade ban.

But I guess we can agree to disagree.
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