Offense minus Defense scoring?

[Preds]

Just another thought that keeps popping into my head...

I'm not sure if FFLM can handle this (though I think it can), but how would you folks feel about subtracting YOUR IDP starters score from YOUR OPPONENTS IOP's score?

Thus say my Pitbulls score 95 on offense with my IOP's, and 60 on Defense with my IDP's, while my OPPONENT (for example Skippy who I LOVE to pick on) scores 80 on offense with his IOP's, and 70 on Defense with his IDP's. Making a final score for the game Pitbulls (95-70) over Grief (80-60) or Pitbulls defeat the Grief 25-20.

As it's setup now, IDP's and IOP's are added together, so the scores in the above example would be 95 + 60 = 155 for the Pitbulls, and 80 + 70 = 150 for a final score of Pitbulls over Grief 155-150.

The result is the same, but the scores will be much lower (possible more in line with NFL scoring), with shutouts a possibility (or even negative scores).

:feedback

I think if you switch mine and your name around you will have it correct.

I would like the idea of slapping a shutout on you preds.

I think there should be some sort of "reward" for any team that gets shut out or ends up with a negative score

[randilover]

We used to do this in the league I'm in with Matt, which he created, for the reason you mentioned, more realistic. I would not mind, but there can not be a negative score. Doesn't really make sense to go negative, although it might throw off the points for/points against recordkeeping if you use that column for tie breakers, etc. Another benefit from that stand point would be if both teams went negative, one could beat the other. Sounds kind of silly to do that though.

But that can be worked out. This is find with me. I do not mind doing it this way. It'd be a nice switch and kind of give you a "real life" look and feel to the games.

Originally Posted by randilover

We used to do this in the league I'm in with Matt, which he created, for the reason you mentioned, more realistic. I would not mind, but there can not be a negative score. Doesn't really make sense to go negative, although it might throw off the points for/points against recordkeeping if you use that column for tie breakers, etc. Another benefit from that stand point would be if both teams went negative, one could beat the other. Sounds kind of silly to do that though.

But that can be worked out. This is find with me. I do not mind doing it this way. It'd be a nice switch and kind of give you a "real life" look and feel to the games.

Why can't there be a negative score?

If my D puts up 85 points and preds wimpy offence only puts up 70. He would end up with (70-85) -15 points. Are you proposing that this would just be a score of 0? What happens if his D puts up 75 points and my O puts up 70 which would result in (70-75) -5 points. If we round this to 0 does this game end in a 0-0 tie?

If we can't go negative then I will vote against this idea. Otherwise we are just throwing away those D points.

[Liquid Swords]

i don't like it just for the reasons of tie-breakers for playoff spots. in the idp league i was in we did this for the 1st year but changed it because the following happened. There was a tie for the wild-card, both teams had the same record and were 1-1 head-to-head so it went to total points. Team A beat out Team B because Team B had more points taken away from his score throughout the season (Team A edged out Team B by something like 10 pts). However, had we not subtracted opposing team's def score from team's off score, Team B would have received the wild-card by a margin of something like 80 points. Team B definitely scored more overall team points than Team A but because Team B faced other teams who had break-out defensive efforts he was penalized and missed out on the playoffs.

Just something to consider that might very well happen. I'd rather be judged on my team solely than to be affected by another team's score in determining playoff tie-breakers.

Now if there is a way to take take the defensive subtraction out of the tie-breaker equation and use the team's total points instead, I wouldn't object.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

i don't like it just for the reasons of tie-breakers for playoff spots. in the idp league i was in we did this for the 1st year but changed it because the following happened. There was a tie for the wild-card, both teams had the same record and were 1-1 head-to-head so it went to total points. Team A beat out Team B because Team B had more points taken away from his score throughout the season (Team A edged out Team B by something like 10 pts). However, had we not subtracted opposing team's def score from team's off score, Team B would have received the wild-card by a margin of something like 80 points. Team B definitely scored more overall team points than Team A but because Team B faced other teams who had break-out defensive efforts he was penalized and missed out on the playoffs.

Just something to consider that might very well happen. I'd rather be judged on my team solely than to be affected by another team's score in determining playoff tie-breakers.

Now if there is a way to take take the defensive subtraction out of the tie-breaker equation and use the team's total points instead, I wouldn't object.

I don't understand you? The point differential is identical between the two (as long as you keep negatives a possibility).

Originally Posted by Preds

I don't understand you? The point differential is identical between the two (as long as you keep negatives a possibility).

I actually can see what he is saying. Basically, the differential between teams would be the same, but the total points would not be the same.

Example:

Team A
Wk 1
Oppenent Score: 70 Off/60 Def
Team A Score: 100 Off/50 Def

Total Score (O+D) = 150 points
Total using Diff method = 40 points

Wk 2
Oppenent Score: 60 Off/40 def
Team A Score: 80 Off/60 Def

Total Score (O+D) = 140 points
Total using Diff method = 40 points

Total for season:
Total Score (O+D) = 290 points
Total using Diff method = 80 points

Team B
Wk 1
Oppenent Score: 60 Off/90 Def
Team B Score: 100 Off/60 Def

Total Score (O+D) = 160 points
Total using Diff method = 10 points

Wk 2
Oppenent Score: 60 Off/90 def
Team B Score: 100 Off/60 Def

Total Score (O+D) = 160 points
Total using Diff method = 10 points

Total for season:
Total Score (O+D) = 320 points
Total using Diff method = 20 points

Team B had the better team by 30 points in this example, but would miss out on the tie break if we used the Diff method.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

I actually can see what he is saying. Basically, the differential between teams would be the same, but the total points would not be the same.

Example:
Team AOpponent scoreOffensiveDefensiveTotalDiffWeek 170 Off/60 Def1005015040Week 260 Off/40 def806014040Total29080Team BOpponent scoreOffensiveDefensiveTotalDiffWeek 160 Off/90 Def1006016010Week 260 Off/90 def1006016010Total32020

Well to that I'd say, isn't part of the idea of Defense based on limiting your opponents score from any given week? Sucks to be the guy who plays the harder schedule, but you play the cards your dealt. If folks want to stack up D against me, than I better have a damn good offense to beat the D. It's just so much more realistic this way IMO.

Actually what this really means is that 1 IOP point is not equal to 1 IDP point.

Basically offensive players are more important than defensive as far as scoring.

Having done the math I have changed my opinion and will vote against this proposal if it gets to a vote.

[Liquid Swords]

Originally Posted by Preds

I don't understand you? The point differential is identical between the two (as long as you keep negatives a possibility).

sure the point differential is the same when you play someone head-to-head. But when figuring out season-long total points in determining tie breakers for playoff spots it can become a problem. You would be determing a season-long total points tie breaker based on your total offensive performance minus your opponents' total defensive score against you. this would be different than your total season-long offensive score plus your season-long defensive score.

so if it comes down to two teams in a season-long total points tie-breaker, there following possibility could happen:

1) Team A outscores Team B when using Team A's total season-long offensive plus defensive scoring vs Team B's total season-long offensive plus defensive scoring. Team A wins tie-breaker

2) Team B outscores Team A when when using Team A's total season-long offensive score minus Team A's opponents' total season-long defensive score vs Team B's total season-long offensive score minus Team B's opponents' total season-long defensive score. Team B wins tie-breaker.

How would rather determine a total season points' tie-breaker? Based on your team's offensive and defensive performance througout the season? Or based on your team's offensive performance minus your opponents' cumulative defensive points.

I'd rather my team's performance be based on the points I put up (offense and defense) and not determined by my oppenents defensive teams in determining a total points tie-breaker.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I actually proposed this idea a while ago (when we were talking about starting an IDP extension either to the Frenzy or as a new league). I can see peoples points about head to head variance but we already accept that each week. If I am playing that beats me by a point but I would have beat every other team I am still getting a lose.

I think it would be good to implement but if everyone is against it I can live without it.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

I'd rather my team's performance be based on the points I put up (offense and defense) and not determined by my oppenents defensive teams in determining a total points tie-breaker.

I agree. otherwise one team would concentrate souly on IOP because other that is what will help your team in a tie - not your IDP. IDP would only be to help eliminate someone else, not help you.

I agree with Preds premise, but think Swords is on to a potential flaw and frustration...

If we want to use it I would want to take it out of the tie break at the end of the year.

[Liquid Swords]

i have no problems with subtracting def pts from opponent's offensive points in the weekly head-to-head matchups. what i do have a problem with is using this methodology in total season points tie-breaker situations for determining playoff eligibility (i think we should use a team's total season offense plus total season defense points instead).

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

i have no problems with subtracting def pts from opponent's offensive points in the weekly head-to-head matchups. what i do have a problem with is using this methodology in total season points tie-breaker situations for determining playoff eligibility (i think we should use a team's total season offense plus total season defense points instead).

if FFLM can show that when deducting scores weekly I have no problem with that.

[Mutts]

I'm not sure where I fall on this one. If what we are going for is realism, it is very realistic that a better NFL team sits out the playoffs while a weaker NFL team gets to play simply because the better team was unlucky enough to have a tougher schedule and therefore run into tougher defenses along the way.

At the same time, this is fantasy football.

[Preds]

Personally, I love the idea of potential shutouts...

I'd be ok with a minimum score of 0 (no negatives), making a 0-0 tie possible (though highly unlikely), but also using total IOP and IDP points as a tie-breaker, or we could using the biggest differential of points for vs. points against as a tie breaker (maybe a better barometer).

[Valencia]

Originally Posted by Preds

Personally, I love the idea of potential shutouts...

I'd be ok with a minimum score of 0 (no negatives), making a 0-0 tie possible (though highly unlikely), but also using total IOP and IDP points as a tie-breaker, or we could using the biggest differential of points for vs. points against as a tie breaker (maybe a better barometer).

After reading and rereading all of your comments on this issue, I think Mike has summed it up here. I also like the idea of the 0-0 tie... could happen.. the only sticking point with me is figuring out the tie-breaker.
I think that IOP + IDP might be a better answer... hear me out.. this would judge your team on its merit only. If we go with the differential... a team that may score alot.. say, just to make my point, 100pts. and has had a tough schedule with defenses scoring... say, 60pts.. diff. being 40pts. An average team that scores 75pts could get lucky and play a soft schedule and play against teams that score 35 points.. Same differential, but I think Team A, probably is the better team. I know that was kind of long winded, but I hope I got my point across. I am not very good at that :idiot . That is why I usually wait for ya'll to make your points. It almost always covers my thoughts by the end of the thread.
Time to go Bowling :lame :nobodycar Hope everybody has a good weekend.
Late,
:valencia