2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Here is a tentative draft order (using points as a tie breaker) except in the case of Jake and I since one of my two wins was against him:

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2)
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75)
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45)
4=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and2203.4)
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4)
6=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75)
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2)
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55)

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8)
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5)
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55)
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4)

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Okay, upon further review of the rules we don't actually specify what will break ties between two teams with the same record when it comes to draft order. I am guessing the Frenzy rules don't address this either.

My thought it would be that it should be total points for the year (with the team with less points getting a higher pick) but that seems a little self-serving at this point.

Whatever is decided we really should write this up and make sure that it is added to the rules for the future.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Okay, upon further review of the rules we don't actually specify what will break ties between two teams with the same record when it comes to draft order. I am guessing the Frenzy rules don't address this either.

My thought it would be that it should be total points for the year (with the team with less points getting a higher pick) but that seems a little self-serving at this point.

Whatever is decided we really should write this up and make sure that it is added to the rules for the future.

My thoughts

A) Ties betwen 2 teams are broken by h2h

B) Ties of 3 or more teams are h2h amongst the teams with one caveat, each team must have played an equal number of games (ie. ties where 2 division teams are 7-7, and a 3rd team from another division is also 7-7 would revert to the next tiebreaker since 2 out of the 3 teams would have played more games against each other than the 3rd).

C) If there is an unequal # of games between 3 or more teams, or the h2h records of all teams are equal; revert to total points, with the higher points getting lower picks.

* Anytime a multiple situation tie is cut down to 2 teams, revert back to A

Ties between 3 or more teams should first narrow the field down to 1 team per division using the division tie break. Once that is done you will have at most one team per division then you go by the h2h2h records.

This is how the NFL does it.

Not sure how it applys to this years ties.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Originally Posted by Preds

My thoughts

A) Ties betwen 2 teams are broken by h2h

B) Ties of 3 or more teams are h2h amongst the teams with one caveat, each team must have played an equal number of games (ie. ties where 2 division teams are 7-7, and a 3rd team from another division is also 7-7 would revert to the next tiebreaker since 2 out of the 3 teams would have played more games against each other than the 3rd).

C) If there is an unequal # of games between 3 or more teams, or the h2h records of all teams are equal; revert to total points, with the higher points getting lower picks.

* Anytime a multiple situation tie is cut down to 2 teams, revert back to A

I think if it has to be H2H than it has to be by winning percentage and then points to break other ties. In all honesty the better barometer of who should pick higher is probably total points scored over the course of the season particularily in a head to head league like ours (since records can be skewed by playing a hot team).

Another option which I think would actually be the best would be All Wins (which I think some websites track) where each week the best team goes 11-0 and the worst goes 0-11. This tends to be a good indicator over the course of the season of who has the strongest (and thus the weakest) teams.

Anyhow, whatever we decide should be recorded in the ever growing rules documentation. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

I think if it has to be H2H than it has to be by winning percentage and then points to break other ties. In all honesty the better barometer of who should pick higher is probably total points scored over the course of the season particularily in a head to head league like ours (since records can be skewed by playing a hot team).

Another option which I think would actually be the best would be All Wins (which I think some websites track) where each week the best team goes 11-0 and the worst goes 0-11. This tends to be a good indicator over the course of the season of who has the strongest (and thus the weakest) teams.

Anyhow, whatever we decide should be recorded in the ever growing rules documentation. Thanks!

Actually we have "All Play" records on the site. Check under owner statistics.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

Ties between 3 or more teams should first narrow the field down to 1 team per division using the division tie break. Once that is done you will have at most one team per division then you go by the h2h2h records.

This is how the NFL does it.

Not sure how it applys to this years ties.

Really? That was not my understanding. In my local league, we have always modeled our tie breakers after NFL rules, and we have never applied it this way.

I by no means mean to imply that it isn't entirely possible we have always done it wrong, but I have never understood it this way.

As far as the order posted, I'm glad my decent play of late didn't screw me out of too good a draft pick.

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

Really? That was not my understanding. In my local league, we have always modeled our tie breakers after NFL rules, and we have never applied it this way.

I by no means mean to imply that it isn't entirely possible we have always done it wrong, but I have never understood it this way.

As far as the order posted, I'm glad my decent play of late didn't screw me out of too good a draft pick.

From NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

From NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

Cool. That could have affected previous seasons. I'll have to bring that up for discussion.

Thanks.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

From NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

Okay, that is a lot to digest. I still think "All Play/All Wins" is the way to go especially if it is already tracked and easy to determine by looking at the website.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Here are all the teams with their records, points scored and all play win %:

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2) = 26.6%
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75) = 19.5%
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45) = 42.2%
4=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and 2203.4) = 29.2%
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4) = 43.5%
6=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75) = 51.3%
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2) = 56.8%
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55) = 55.5%

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8) = 61.0%
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5) = 74.7%
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55) = 72.7%
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4) = 66.9%

I think for the future this is by far the best way to break ties if two or more teams are tied.

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Okay, that is a lot to digest. I still think "All Play/All Wins" is the way to go especially if it is already tracked and easy to determine by looking at the website.

I agree this would probably be the easiest way to do this. We do not need to mimick the NFL.

The big question is what do we do this year? We have 2 ties to work out - the two way between Eco Warriors and Gunslingers and the 3 wayh between Chambers, Bloodsuckers and Hill.

Since the rules do not spell it out I think we need to ask WWFD (what would Frenzy do?) since the rules are based off of that set of rules (it pains this CDLer to type that ;) .

This can be added to the growing list of issues to vote on in the off season. I like freedom's suggestion for tie break.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

I agree this would probably be the easiest way to do this. We do not need to mimick the NFL.

The big question is what do we do this year? We have 2 ties to work out - the two way between Eco Warriors and Gunslingers and the 3 wayh between Chambers, Bloodsuckers and Hill.

Since the rules do not spell it out I think we need to ask WWFD (what would Frenzy do?) since the rules are based off of that set of rules (it pains this CDLer to type that ;) .

This can be added to the growing list of issues to vote on in the off season. I like freedom's suggestion for tie break.

Frenzy has the same cluster**** situation, and we haven't determined a solution there yet either. In the past, we've used h2h.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Frenzy has the same cluster**** situation, and we haven't determined a solution there yet either. In the past, we've used h2h.

I think that All Play is the best way to measure who really sucked worse, but in this case (SAC'd) that would seem self-serving since it would give me the top pick.

Not sure what the right answer is for this year but I definately think it is the right way for next year (and going forward).

[Burt the Butcher]

H2H is always the first line of tie-breaking in every league I have played in (at least that I can recall). Then it seems to be total points. All-play record would be nice, but I have never seen that used in tie-breakers in any league, and it seem to be bad precedence to use it this year.

So for this year do we default to the way the NFL does it.

That would result in

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2) = 26.6% lost h2h with Gunslingers
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75) = 19.5% won h2h with Warriors
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45) = 42.2%
4=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75) = 51.3% lost h2h with Bloodsuckers
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4) = 43.5% won h2h with Chambers
6=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and 2203.4) = 29.2% better div record than Bloodsuckers
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2) = 56.8%
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55) = 55.5%

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8) = 61.0%
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5) = 74.7%
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55) = 72.7%
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4) = 66.9%

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

So for this year do we default to the way the NFL does it.

That would result in

1=Bloomington Eco Warriors (2-12 and 2024.2) = 26.6% lost h2h with Gunslingers
2=Glenside Gunslingers (2-12 and 1990.75) = 19.5% won h2h with Warriors
3=Falcon Floyds (5-9 and 2345.45) = 42.2%
4=Disciples of the 36 Chambers (6-8 and 2510.75) = 51.3% lost h2h with Bloodsuckers
5=Bay Area Bloodsuckers (6-8 and2389.4) = 43.5% won h2h with Chambers
6=Maplewood Mountain Lions (6-8 and 2203.4) = 29.2% better div record than Bloodsuckers
7=Jawbone Hill (7-7 and 2415.2) = 56.8%
8=Buffalo Pitbulls (8-6 and 2469.55) = 55.5%

Playoff teams:
y-Valencia Vibe (9-5 and 2580.8) = 61.0%
x-Good Grief (10-4 and 2788.5) = 74.7%
y-Subzero (11-3 and 2764.55) = 72.7%
y-Chagrin Falls D. M. K. M. Snow Goon (12-2 and 2634.4) = 66.9%

The more I think about it I think this is wrong. This really doesnt work/make sence for draft order. The NFL apparently thinks so to so they have a seperate segment for Tie Breaking for the draft

TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURE FOR SELECTION MEETING
If two or more clubs are tied in the selection order, the strength-of-schedule tie breaker is applied, subject to the following exceptions for playoff clubs:

1. The Super Bowl winner is last and the Super Bowl loser next-to-last.
2. Any non-Super Bowl playoff club involved in a tie shall be assigned priority within its segment below that of non-playoff clubs and in the order that the playoff clubs exited from the playoffs. Thus, within a tied segment a playoff club that loses in the Wild-Card game will have priority over a playoff club that loses in the Divisional playoff game, which in turn will have priority over a club that loses in the Conference Championship game. If two tied clubs exited the playoffs in the same round, the tie is broken by strength of schedule.

If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip.

NFL basically takes it down to strenght of schedule.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

To chime in, I feel it should be H2H, then total points, if there is a tie still, then go with 'play all'.

the problem with h2h is the 3way tie where 2 teams are in the same division.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

For this year I am fine with H2H since that was what I understood it to be from the Frenzy.

However, I think the best way in the long run is to go with All Play to break ties since this seems to give you the best overall indicator of whose team is strongest (or weakest and needs the most help!!).

[Liquid Swords]

We had a similar discussion in the IFFL recently. We broke it down by comparing individual teams to one another (H2H 1st, Total Points 2nd, haven't decided on 3rd yet). So here would be the IFFL breakdown for SAC'D

1. Mutts (2-12) - Lost H2H w/Freedom
2. Freedom (2-12) - Won H2H w/Mutts
3. Burt (5-9)
4. Dodgers (6-8) - Lost H2H w/Swords, Split H2H w/Flaxwless, Less points than Flaxwless
5. Swords (6-8) - Won H2H w/Dodgers, Lost H2H w/Flaxwless
6. Flaxwless (6-8) - Won H2H w/Swords, Split H2H w/Dodgers, More points than Dodgers
7. randilover (7-7)
8. Preds (8-6)

It's unlikely to come down to a 3rd tie-breaker but in the IFFL we've discussed using Coach's Grade or Power Ranking as the 3rd tie-breaker.

2cents

Does FBG still have the "Ask the commish" feature. Basically someone who would make rulings on issues from a impartial point of view? Last year they had it but it was just for paying members.

Because of the fact that none of us is impartial I suggest we send this to either the FBG service (I am sure someone on the board is a member (I'm not) or another independant arbitrator. We agree that for this year we will accept whatever their decision is for this year and in the off season add tie breakers to the rules.

I would suggest posting on the FFB boards for opinions but we would probably get 10 different options and no solution.

Email I would send

Dear <independat arbitrator>,

Our dynasty league started up this past year and when we made the rules we failed to add a section for tie breakers. No one noticed that this was missed until this past weekend when they came into play.

After much discussion and many options we have come to no conclusion. We decided to submit our information to you as an independant arbitrator for a ruling. We plan on adding a section to our rules in the offseason to handle this but I think we are all too close to the situation right now to make a good decision.

Basically we are trying to determine the draft order for our Rookie Draft.

Here is the info on the teams. We have included record, total points, "All Play" win %, and h2h records. All of which have been proposed as tie breakers.

1st set of ties
Bloomington Eco Warriors 2-12, 2024.2 points, 26.6%, Lost H2H w/Gunslinger
Glenside Gunslingers 2-12, 1990.75, 19.5%, Won H2H w/Eco Warriors

2nd set of ties
Maplewood Mountain Lions 6-8, 2203.4, 29.2%, Lost H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Bloodsuckers
Bay Area Bloodsuckers 6-8, 2389.4, 43.5%, Won H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Mts Lions
Disciples of the 36 Chambers 6-8, 2510.75, 51.3%,Won H2H w/Mtn Lions, Lost H2H w/Bloodsuckers

Couple other pieces of info:
- mtn lions and bloodsuckers are in the same division.
- bloodsuckers's div record is 3-3
- mtn lions div record is 4-2

If you need any more info let me know and we will send it to you.

Thanks for your help.

:edit to fix mixup with first set of ties h2h

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Skippy, real nice job on the summary. However,

1st set of ties
Bloomington Eco Warriors 2-12, 2024.2 points, 26.6%, Lost H2H w/Freedom
Glenside Gunslingers 2-12, 1990.75, 19.5%, Won H2H w/Gunslingers

Should be:
1st set of ties
Bloomington Eco Warriors 2-12, 2024.2 points, 26.6%, Lost H2H w/Gunslinger
Glenside Gunslingers 2-12, 1990.75, 19.5%, Won H2H w/Eco Warriors

Also, I know Randilover is a FBG's member but I am not sure about the ask the commish feature.

fixed

preds do you have a fbg membership?

[Liquid Swords]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

2nd set of ties
Maplewood Mountain Lions 6-8, 2203.4, 29.2%, Lost H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Bloodsuckers
Bay Area Bloodsuckers 6-8, 2389.4, 43.5%, Won H2H w/Mts Lions, Won H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Mts Lions
Disciples of the 36 Chambers 6-8, 2510.75, 51.3%,Won H2H w/Mtn Lions, Lost H2H w/Bloodsuckers

Should read:

Maplewood Mountain Lions 6-8, 2203.4, 29.2%, Lost H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Bloodsuckers
Bay Area Bloodsuckers 6-8, 2389.4, 43.5%, <REMOVE>Won H2H w/Mts Lions,</REMOVE> Won H2H w/Disciples, Split H2H w/Mts Lions
Disciples of the 36 Chambers 6-8, 2510.75, 51.3%,Won H2H w/Mtn Lions, Lost H2H w/Bloodsuckers


Note: I still think my solution above is the most logical with H2H and Total Points as the tie breakers. You should compare each team to each of the others not all 3 against each other unless you have a loop (ie. Team A won H2H against Team B, Team B won H2H against Team C, and Team C won H2H against Team A....in which case you'd go to total points b/n the 3 teams)...we don't have a loop in our situation.

fixed per swords post.

i just think we should let someone else decide because it is hard for anyone here to have an unbiased opinion.

it is not just the 5 teams mentioned that have conflict of interest issues. it is a lot of others once you factor in traded picks

not trying to say anyone would be unfair, but this way there is no room for complainingl

[Liquid Swords]

what about using a few guys who aren't in SAC'D but are in the Frenzy or CDL...maybe someone like Jim (Royal Hawaiian Opihi) and some others might be willing to give us feedback or make a non-biased decision.