IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure

[Preds]

We need the following 3 teams to vote on this issue still

Valencia
Insects
and Mutts

[keepers]

I think that maybe we should have had 3 categories here. I have voted to have rookies in the vet auction, however could go for a rookie auction if we can come up with which seems like a reasonable rookie salary cap. I am dead against having a rookie draft as don't think there is any fair way to do it.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by keepers

I think that maybe we should have had 3 categories here. I have voted to have rookies in the vet auction, however could go for a rookie auction if we can come up with which seems like a reasonable rookie salary cap. I am dead against having a rookie draft as don't think there is any fair way to do it.

I'm the exact opposite. I wouldn't want a rookie auction, because then you have to get funky with the salaries, the fact they won't match anything in years following, figure out if bonuses will apply, etc. I voted for a rookie draft in hopes it was random, so I guess we cancel each other out.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I don't care how we do it I just want the rookies to be seperate from the vets. Speaking of which what happens if we get a 6-6 vote? Is this a rules committee decision?

[The Immortal Ramirez]

My guess is that we discuss the topic some more and see if anyone's opinion changes (being convinced/"sold" on a point they hadn't thought about). Then another vote. I don't think it should be a rules committee thing. they are their to interpret the rules, not make them...

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I'm the exact opposite. I wouldn't want a rookie auction, because then you have to get funky with the salaries, the fact they won't match anything in years following, figure out if bonuses will apply, etc. I voted for a rookie draft in hopes it was random, so I guess we cancel each other out.

I have to agree with LADude here. If we auction this year, then draft with set salaries in future years, this years rookie class will most likely not have equitable value compared to future classes. Bad way to start things off.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by paulsonpatch

I have to agree with LADude here. If we auction this year, then draft with set salaries in future years, this years rookie class will most likely not have equitable value compared to future classes. Bad way to start things off.

Agreed.:toast:

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Okay, I never thought I would do this but I really want a rookie draft. Since the issue seems to be the fairness of a draft order:

If it will swing a "no" vote to a "yes" (for a rookie draft) I would trade all of my picks for all their picks (if this move was advantegous for them) even if I ended up with pick 1 and they had pick 12. Any takers?

BTW, you need to somehow prove that your vote changed and can't just call this in later on!

[Mutts]

I'm torn at this point. I support a rookie draft - but not a serpentine style with predetermined salaries. Is it possible we could have one auction, including rookies, but allow for a certain number of rookies to be placed on the Taxi Squad?

[Nittany Dodgers]

I'm considering changing my vote to throwing the rookies in with the veterans if the league is going to be leaning towards a rookie auction draft if this passes. That to me is the worst possible scneario since it involves creating a new set of rules. Other than determining order, a serpentine draft fits in with the rule structure we'll be using going forward. An auction for rookies requires 300 additional posts to determine how the rookies are going to be handles, and who knows how many more votes (I know the non Frenzy guys love votes).

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I support a rookie draft - but not a serpentine style with predetermined salaries. Is it possible we could have one auction, including rookies, but allow for a certain number of rookies to be placed on the Taxi Squad?

I think the predetermined salaries are going to be there next year anyways so I am not as concerned with that issue. As for the order of the draft I have to be honest in 6 rounds with 12 picks each I think that there are 72 rookies that are worthy of being drafted whether they be active players in 2005 or developmental. In fact unless someone wanted to we could probably get 72 players picked without having to even take players taken after Day 1.

Like I said I will switch all six picks with anyone (if it works to their advantage) to ensure that we get this rookie draft in place for 2005.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

What we can do is to determine if we want the rookies to be separate (the vote at hand).

If it is determined to be separate, then we can argue and debate the advantages and disadvantages of rookie auction vs rookie draft. And, yes....we'd probably need another vote. But, if it's to make sure the system works, then I'm all for an extra vote.

I am still standing by the rookies being separate. but, majority rules. Too bad, I didn't vote against it, I'd take you up on your offer Freedom!

[randilover]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I'm considering changing my vote to throwing the rookies in with the veterans if the league is going to be leaning towards a rookie auction draft if this passes. That to me is the worst possible scneario since it involves creating a new set of rules. Other than determining order, a serpentine draft fits in with the rule structure we'll be using going forward. An auction for rookies requires 300 additional posts to determine how the rookies are going to be handles, and who knows how many more votes (I know the non Frenzy guys love votes).

I'd have to go with a no if it comes to auction as well. Not only the rules and figuring out the details, but the time would be longer than a draft. I am convinced a rookie draft is the best way to go. If we go with having them in with the auction, fine, but otherwise the draft seems ideal.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I am still standing by the rookies being separate. but, majority rules. Too bad, I didn't vote against it, I'd take you up on your offer Freedom!

Heck, you already volunteered to take pick 1.12...

[Burt the Butcher]

We held an initial draft last year that was a modified serpentine, and seemed to work well. It went 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12, 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, etc. That seemed to even things out and seems more fair than basic serpentine.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by paulsonpatch

We held an initial draft last year that was a modified serpentine, and seemed to work well. It went 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12, 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, etc. That seemed to even things out and seems more fair than basic serpentine.

Under that format I still HEAVILY want the 1.1, 1.2, or 1.3 in a Rookie Draft.

The talent in a rookie draft isn't that deep (even an IDP one)... it just doesn't even out 4-5 rounds down the line.

I'm just majorly NOT in favor of an inequitable Rookie Draft... but we'll let the masses decide.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Okay, this does not seem to have progressed (probably b/c all of the Frnezy guys were bikcering/debating)! I doubt this will be the perfect solution but it keeps everyone with 6 picks and using the NFL's pick value calculator evens out the spread that so many seem to be concerned about.

In this case the average per team is 3746 and here are the individual values (assuming Team 1 has pick 1.1 and Team 12 has pick 1.12):

Team 1: 3945
Team 2: 3885
Team 3 :3930
Team 4: 3670
Team 5: 3620
Team 6: 3690
Team 7: 3650
Team 8: 3700
Team 9: 3755
Team 10: 3900
Team 11: 3612
Team 12: 3596

While team 12 is the lowest they are not that far off the average (only 150) and Team 1 remains the highest but they are only over by about 200. Also, in this scenario Team 12 has all six of their picks in the Top 50. While Team 1 get the valuable pick 1.1 and then has to wait awhile. There are plusses and minuses to each slot but no one has an overwhelming advantage or disadvantage.

Pick #-Team- Pick Value (as taken from the NFL pick value calculator)

1.01-Team 1-3000
1.02-Team 2-2600
1.03-Team 3-2200
1.04-Team 4-1800
1.05-Team 5-1700
1.06-Team 6-1600
1.07-Team 7-1500
1.08-Team 8-1400
1.09-Team 9-1350
1.10-Team 10-1300
1.11-Team 11-1250
1.12-Team 12-1200
2.01-Team 12-900
2.02-Team 11-875
2.03-Team 10-850
2.04-Team 9-800
2.05-Team 8-780
2.06-Team 7-740
2.07-Team 6-720
2.08-Team 5-700
2.09-Team 4-680
2.10-Team 3-660
2.11-Team 7-640
2.12-Team 10-580
3.01-Team 12-560
3.02-Team 11-550
3.03-Team 10-540
3.04-Team 9-530
3.05-Team 8-520
3.06-Team 2-510
3.07-Team 6-500
3.08-Team 5-490
3.09-Team 4-480
3.10-Team 3-470
3.11-Team 9-460
3.12-Team 8-400
4.01-Team 12-390
4.02-Team 11-380
4.03-Team 10-370
4.04-Team 9-360
4.05-Team 8-350
4.06-Team 7-340
4.07-Team 6-330
4.08-Team 5-320
4.09-Team 4-310
4.10-Team 6-300
4.11-Team 11-292
4.12-Team 12-276
5.01-Team 12-270
5.02-Team 11-265
5.03-Team 10-260
5.04-Team 9-255
5.05-Team 8-250
5.06-Team 7-245
5.07-Team 6-240
5.08-Team 5-235
5.09-Team 4-230
5.10-Team 3-225
5.11-Team 2-220
5.12-Team 1-215
6.01-Team 3-210
6.02-Team 2-205
6.03-Team 1-200
6.04-Team 1-195
6.05-Team 2-190
6.06-Team 7-185
6.07-Team 1-180
6.08-Team 5-175
6.09-Team 4-170
6.10-Team 3-165
6.11-Team 2-160
6.12-Team 1-155

[Preds]

Matt,

The problem here is you're trying to equate the 1st 6 rounds of a vet draft as equivelant to the 1st 6 rounds of a rookie draft. It's not even close. Rookie Draft's are much top heavier.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Not sure I follow. This is the NFL pick values (for rookie drafts) the first pick is worth 3,000 and pick 1.12 is 1,200. That seems pretty heavily weighted to me (since pick 1.12 is worth only 30% of pick 1.1).

I tried to post the values associated with each pick on the line with the pick so everyone could see the numbers that I used (again this off of something I found on a draft site a year or two ago).

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Not sure I follow. This is the NFL pick values (for rookie drafts) the first pick is worth 3,000 and pick 1.12 is 1,200. That seems pretty heavily weighted to me (since pick 1.12 is worth only 30% of pick 1.1).

I tried to post the values associated with each pick on the line with the pick so everyone could see the numbers that I used (again this off of something I found on a draft site a year or two ago).

NFL pick value? I'd love to see a link. And who determines such standard pick value for rookie drafts which have inherently different values from one year to the next?

[The Immortal Ramirez]

I don't have a link, but I've heard of that before.

Let us know where it is, Matt

[Philadelphia Freedom]

How do you attach a word file? That was how I saved it.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

How do you attach a word file? That was how I saved it.

If you use the Post Reply button, instead of the Quick Reply feature, there is a series of Advanced options underneath the main message box.

One of those is to add Attachments. Click on the Manage Attachments box and a popup will come up giving you the option to browse your PC and upload a file as part of your post.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Here is my first attempt to add an attachment.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Preds

NFL pick value? I'd love to see a link. And who determines such standard pick value for rookie drafts which have inherently different values from one year to the next?

Is this the same thing as the chart the Cowboys made famous while Jimmy Johnson was still there? If it is, it is a chart the Cowboys created (and every team has copied since then, at least that's my understanding) where they did a historical analysis of draft trades, and what each pick has been worth. That was my recollection. I believe it was based on trades, and not actual players values. Thus, when someone came with the Cowboys with a trade offer of their 2nd and 3rd for the Cowboys 1st, they just looked at the chart, added up the value, and it told them if it was a good deal.

Again, this is just going off my memory of watching the draft 10 years ago.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Here is my first attempt to add an attachment.

What doesn't your chart follow the same straight line degression of values that the NFL chart does? Shouldn't the 2.1 have the same value of the NFL's 1.13?

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Here is my first attempt to add an attachment.

Interesting chart and all, but pretty much useless IMO since there is no explanation of the thought process and analysis they used to determine the values, or when it was made.

I tried to go to their website http://www.footballcorner.bizland.com/ and gotten a Forbidden Page message. I've never heard of the site.

Heck I could make up a chart with numbers for every pick, and it would hold just as little value as the current document you presented does.

Without analysis to back up the data the chart has no value IMO.

I'll also note that curiously they point out that "This value chart was not obtained from any NFL team."

[The Immortal Ramirez]

they probably added that last part so they don't get sued.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez

they probably added that last part so they don't get sued.

, like that would actually protect anyone in a suit... not a chance!

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Again, I can't vouch for it other than saying that I found it a couple of years ago and it seemed to make sense to me. If you want to create a different set of values that more appropriately reflects your view of the values that is fine by me. I was just trying to use something to mitigate what seemed to be concerns about the random draft order.

Using the chart (for what it is worth to even each teams value) here is each teams picks:

Team 1: 3945
1.01-3000
5.12-215
6.03-200
6.04-195
6.07-180
6.12-155

Team 2: 3885
1.02-2600
3.06-510
5.11-220
6.02-205
6.05-190
6.11-160

Team 3 :3930
1.03-2200
2.10-660
3.10-470
5.10-225
6.01-210
6.10-165

Team 4: 3670
1.04-1800
2.09-680
3.09-480
4.09-310
5.09-230
6.09-170

Team 5: 3620
1.05-1700
2.08-700
3.08-490
4.08-320
5.08-235
6.08-175

Team 6: 3690
1.06-1600
2.07-720
3.07-500
4.07-330
4.10-300
5.07-240

Team 7: 3650
1.07-1500
2.06-740
2.11-640
4.06-340
5.06-245
6.06-185

Team 8: 3700
1.08-1400
2.05-780
3.05-520
3.12-400
4.05-350
5.05-250

Team 9: 3755
1.09-1350
2.04-800
3.04-530
3.11-460
4.04-360
5.04-255

Team 10: 3900
1.10-1300
2.03-850
2.12-580
3.03-540
4.03-370
5.03-260

Team 11: 3612
1.11-1250
2.02-875
3.02-550
4.02-380
4.11-292
5.02-265

Team 12: 3596
1.12-1200
2.01-900
3.01-560
4.01-390
4.12-276
5.01-270