2006 Draft Order (unconfirmed)

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Preds

FYI... I'll repeat that the NFL does NOT use h2h for draft order tiebreakers... they use STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE. I think we should emulate that. It wouldn't be that hard to addup the wins and losses of all 12 teams and determine our own strength of schedule.

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakers

Well, in the NFL, you are going to have multiple teams tied at just about every record, and most likely multiple instances of those teams not playing each other, or playing each other different amounts that having head to head as your first tie breaker wouldn't be a universally fair measure, or evenly regularly implemented. In short, it would be a logistical nightmare. Thus a nice metric of SOS. In the Frenzy and SAC'D though, all teams play each other at least once guaranteed. And, if we use the NFL method of eliminating all but one team tied within a division to break tied between teams of other divisions, all H2H tie breakers would involve an even number of games between tied teams (either you are breaking a tie between teams within a division, or breaking a tie between teams from different divisions, never breaking a tie between two teams in one division at the same time as teams from other divisions).

[Burt the Butcher]

Does anyone have a tangible example of how the "Strength of Schedule" format would work, something we can hash over? I am still kind of on the fence on whether h2h would be the way to go. One game against an opponent won't always show dominance in FF.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Burt the Butcher

Does anyone have a tangible example of how the "Strength of Schedule" format would work, something we can hash over? I am still kind of on the fence on whether h2h would be the way to go. One game against an opponent won't always show dominance in FF.

When it comes to determining the Draft Order, I think we should mimic the NFL's SOS (which awards higher picks to teams with weaker schedules) for tied teams by using TOTAL POINTS AGAINST and disregarding h2h entirely.

I could also get on board with awarding higher picks to the teams scoring the FEWEST POINTS FOR (teams that are tied in overall record).

Either way works for me.

Also, like the NFL, when ties are broken in this manner, I think we should move the higher pick to the end (of the tied teams) the next round, with everyone else among the tie moving up 1 slot. I'd mimic this for each rd. Basically, if only 2 teams were tied, they'd switch positions every other round. If 3 teams were tied, 1 would move to 3, 2 to 1, and 3 to 2 in rd 2, and in rd 3, 2 would move to 3, 3 to 1, and 1 to 2. etc.

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Preds

When it comes to determining the Draft Order, I think we should mimic the NFL's SOS (which awards higher picks to teams with weaker schedules) for tied teams by using TOTAL POINTS AGAINST and disregarding h2h entirely.

I could also get on board with awarding higher picks to the teams scoring the FEWEST POINTS FOR (teams that are tied in overall record).

Either way works for me.

Also, like the NFL, when ties are broken in this manner, I think we should move the higher pick to the end (of the tied teams) the next round, with everyone else among the tie moving up 1 slot. I'd mimic this for each rd. Basically, if only 2 teams were tied, they'd switch positions every other round. If 3 teams were tied, 1 would move to 3, 2 to 1, and 3 to 2 in rd 2, and in rd 3, 2 would move to 3, 3 to 1, and 1 to 2. etc.

My opinion, is that if we are not going to do H2H, then the tie breaker should just be total points. The point of these leagues are to play H2H games, so in my mind, that should be the #1 thing you look at. However, if you are going to get away from that, and try to determine who the worst of the tied teams are, then you should go total points. No team can control in any fashion what their opponent scores, so to have the tie breaker as points against means that the draft order tie breaker will be arbitratily random (as it will depend on the schedule, and who plays who on what weeks). At least we can control our own points for, and that is a better baramoter of how good a team is (or isn't).

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Preds

When it comes to determining the Draft Order, I think we should mimic the NFL's SOS (which awards higher picks to teams with weaker schedules) for tied teams by using TOTAL POINTS AGAINST and disregarding h2h entirely.

I could also get on board with awarding higher picks to the teams scoring the FEWEST POINTS FOR (teams that are tied in overall record).

Either way works for me.

Also, like the NFL, when ties are broken in this manner, I think we should move the higher pick to the end (of the tied teams) the next round, with everyone else among the tie moving up 1 slot. I'd mimic this for each rd. Basically, if only 2 teams were tied, they'd switch positions every other round. If 3 teams were tied, 1 would move to 3, 2 to 1, and 3 to 2 in rd 2, and in rd 3, 2 would move to 3, 3 to 1, and 1 to 2. etc.

Wow...too late to figure that one out...sounds like too much work for the commish to keep track of...

I agree with Brian, that total points scored is a better indicator than points against...

[Mutts]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

My opinion, is that if we are not going to do H2H, then the tie breaker should just be total points. The point of these leagues are to play H2H games, so in my mind, that should be the #1 thing you look at. However, if you are going to get away from that, and try to determine who the worst of the tied teams are, then you should go total points. No team can control in any fashion what their opponent scores, so to have the tie breaker as points against means that the draft order tie breaker will be arbitratily random (as it will depend on the schedule, and who plays who on what weeks). At least we can control our own points for, and that is a better baramoter of how good a team is (or isn't).

I agree with Brian here. Though, still not really sure why H2H would not be used as the tiebreaker. Is this not the rule most in H2H leagues have played with forever?

[Liquid Swords]

Originally Posted by Mutts

I agree with Brian here. Though, still not really sure why H2H would not be used as the tiebreaker. Is this not the rule most in H2H leagues have played with forever?

[Nittany Dodgers]

Do we have a consensus or are we ready to make a vote on this?

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

Do we have a consensus or are we ready to make a vote on this?

I think there needs to be a vote..but what are options...it looks like H2H, Total Points, and NFL Style? Total Points would seem to work on it's own, but still chance of tie there. H2H would have to have a 2nd and possibly 3rd layer, NFL Style has all that built in...How about these as options:

1) H2H, then Total Points, then Division Record, then Coin Flip
2) Total Points, H2H, Division Record, Coin Flip
3) NFL Style

[Preds]

I think a 2 team tie should be broken by h2h, 3 or more teams by total points.

Originally Posted by Preds

I think a 2 team tie should be broken by h2h, 3 or more teams by total points.

with preds (there is a first time for everything)

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

with preds (there is a first time for everything)

But how about this scenario? Three teams tied. Team A swept Team B and Team C. Team B swept team C. Isn't this a clear cut example where the tie breaker should be laid out:

Team A
Team B
Team C

?

Obviously, if the H2H situations are not as clear, it cannot be used, and then you would go to points, but when the situtation is clear, it in my opinion, should still be used. It is easy enough to write the tie breaker to be clear that if the H2H tie break does not show a clear cut order of the teams, it is not used and you go to points.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

But how about this scenario? Three teams tied. Team A swept Team B and Team C. Team B swept team C. Isn't this a clear cut example where the tie breaker should be laid out:

Team A
Team B
Team C

?

Obviously, if the H2H situations are not as clear, it cannot be used, and then you would go to points, but when the situtation is clear, it in my opinion, should still be used. It is easy enough to write the tie breaker to be clear that if the H2H tie break does not show a clear cut order of the teams, it is not used and you go to points.

I'd be fine with that. That's kinda how the NFL does it for playoff tiebreakers, a team must have swept all other tied teams to advance ahead of the other tied teams.

So H2H only if it is a Sweep then total points?

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

So H2H only if it is a Sweep then total points?

That's always the way I've done it, I guess I should have been more clear on that.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

That's always the way I've done it, I guess I should have been more clear on that.

BTW, I believe that's how I handled the prelim Frenzy order.

[Burt the Butcher]

H2H Sweep then total points. Sounds good to me....put it to a vote and let's get a consensus.

get er done