IDP Rookie cap hit and bonus structure

[keepers]

I agree with Matt that the fairest way (if there is a fair way) to do a rookie draft this year is 1-12 in the first round and 12-1 in every round after ... Mike is right that rookie drafts are even more top heavy than vet drafts.

Matt, if we use this format I will change my vote to having a separate rookie draft and take you up on your offer of choosing between our two spots

[Preds]

Originally Posted by keepers

I agree with Matt that the fairest way (if there is a fair way) to do a rookie draft this year is 1-12 in the first round and 12-1 in every round after ... Mike is right that rookie drafts are even more top heavy than vet drafts.

Matt, if we use this format I will change my vote to having a separate rookie draft and take you up on your offer of choosing between our two spots

FYI, Mattis isn't proposing 1-12 then 12-1 12-1 12-1 12-1 12-1

He' proposing a scale that changes with each successive round to some degree.

Brian proposed what your thinking much earlier in the thread.

[keepers]

Originally Posted by Preds

FYI, Mattis isn't proposing 1-12 then 12-1 12-1 12-1 12-1 12-1

He' proposing a scale that changes with each successive round to some degree.

Brian proposed what your thinking much earlier in the thread.

Ahh, you are right, I missed that. Looking at it more closely I like Matt's scale even better as it detracts even more from the top few picks ... I would go with this solution.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Okay, if keepers swings to the rookie vote side with the modified draft order (he can have the better of our picks). Thanks!!

[keepers]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Okay, if keepers swings to the rookie vote side with the modified draft order (he can have the better of our picks). Thanks!!

Done ... I am officially in the camp of having a separate rookie draft if we go with Matt's format. I don't know that there is exactly a better pick in this format, just a preference.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by keepers

Done ... I am officially in the camp of having a separate rookie draft if we go with Matt's format. I don't know that there is exactly a better pick in this format, just a preference.

I edited the poll to reflect your "change of heart" *cough*BRIBE*cough* ;)

You're still short a vote for the measure to pass... and I'm not so certain a simple majority should win out on this... but whatever at this point lol.

Keepers, I had no idea you could be bought so cheaply... I'll keep that in mind ;).

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Again, I can't vouch for it other than saying that I found it a couple of years ago and it seemed to make sense to me. If you want to create a different set of values that more appropriately reflects your view of the values that is fine by me. I was just trying to use something to mitigate what seemed to be concerns about the random draft order.

Again Matt, can you explain how you selected the values from the chart? Why doesn't our 2.1 pick match the charts 1.13? You have it matching the 1.18. I'm just trying to understand how you determined the relative values, or was this a mistake?

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Preds

I edited the poll to reflect your "change of heart" *cough*BRIBE*cough* ;)

You're still short a vote for the measure to pass... and I'm not so certain a simple majority should win out on this... but whatever at this point lol.

Keepers, I had no idea you could be bought so cheaply... I'll keep that in mind ;).

I've lost track, do we have a number of people who are abstaining from voting on this issue? I also don't think a simple majority should prevail in this. We really need to come to a consensus of some sort. Of the (sort of) majority who want a seperate rookie draft, there are three different proposals, and some of those in the majority only want a rookie draft if their prefered method is used. I think we are far from resolution here, personally.

[keepers]

Originally Posted by Preds

I edited the poll to reflect your "change of heart" *cough*BRIBE*cough* ;)

You're still short a vote for the measure to pass... and I'm not so certain a simple majority should win out on this... but whatever at this point lol.

Keepers, I had no idea you could be bought so cheaply... I'll keep that in mind ;).

. I like the idea of having a separate rookie whatever but didn't think there was a fair way to do a draft so voted to having rookies included in with the Vets. However, I like Matt's format and think it should be relatively fair so I was teetering on the edge of which way to go ... Matt's offer pushed me over.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Again, I can't vouch for it other than saying that I found it a couple of years ago and it seemed to make sense to me. If you want to create a different set of values that more appropriately reflects your view of the values that is fine by me. I was just trying to use something to mitigate what seemed to be concerns about the random draft order.

Using the chart (for what it is worth to even each teams value) here is each teams picks:

Team 1: 3945
1.01-3000
5.12-215
6.03-200
6.04-195
6.07-180
6.12-155

Team 2: 3885
1.02-2600
3.06-510
5.11-220
6.02-205
6.05-190
6.11-160

Team 3 :3930
1.03-2200
2.10-660
3.10-470
5.10-225
6.01-210
6.10-165

Team 4: 3670
1.04-1800
2.09-680
3.09-480
4.09-310
5.09-230
6.09-170

Team 5: 3620
1.05-1700
2.08-700
3.08-490
4.08-320
5.08-235
6.08-175

Team 6: 3690
1.06-1600
2.07-720
3.07-500
4.07-330
4.10-300
5.07-240

Team 7: 3650
1.07-1500
2.06-740
2.11-640
4.06-340
5.06-245
6.06-185

Team 8: 3700
1.08-1400
2.05-780
3.05-520
3.12-400
4.05-350
5.05-250

Team 9: 3755
1.09-1350
2.04-800
3.04-530
3.11-460
4.04-360
5.04-255

Team 10: 3900
1.10-1300
2.03-850
2.12-580
3.03-540
4.03-370
5.03-260

Team 11: 3612
1.11-1250
2.02-875
3.02-550
4.02-380
4.11-292
5.02-265

Team 12: 3596
1.12-1200
2.01-900
3.01-560
4.01-390
4.12-276
5.01-270

Dang, man. Don't you work. The other chart as well. I hope you're cutting and pasting all this!

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I've lost track, do we have a number of people who are abstaining from voting on this issue? I also don't think a simple majority should prevail in this. We really need to come to a consensus of some sort. Of the (sort of) majority who want a seperate rookie draft, there are three different proposals, and some of those in the majority only want a rookie draft if their prefered method is used. I think we are far from resolution here, personally.

Swords, Skippy and Myself are in the against column (Kepeprs is being a switch hitter (watch your backside folks ;))

Valencia, Mutts, and Insects have not voted... Mutts seem on the fence

The rest are in favor of some kind of rookie draft or auction (some against auction) depending on the fairness of what can be worked out.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Again Matt, can you explain how you selected the values from the chart? Why doesn't our 2.1 pick match the charts 1.13? You have it matching the 1.18. I'm just trying to understand how you determined the relative values, or was this a mistake?

Brian- I think I figured out what happened I had laid this out in Excel last year to use with our Frenzy draft. When we added the compensatory picks (I think there were 5 first rounders) I am guessing I did not reorder (add back those 5 values) it right. Let me do that to see if there are any material changes.

Dang, man. Don't you work. The other chart as well. I hope you're cutting and pasting all this!

Lots of cutting and pasting going on!!

[randilover]

Originally Posted by Preds

Swords, Skippy and Myself are in the against column (Kepeprs is being a switch hitter (watch your backside folks ;))

Valencia, Mutts, and Insects have not voted... Mutts seem on the fence

The rest are in favor of some kind of rookie draft or auction (some against auction) depending on the fairness of what can be worked out.

I have been a friend to Matt for years, so this in no way reflects on him (just his idea). But if we are going to go with a system where the numbers on slot 1 have the first pick and then not another for 5 rounds, I don't care what the Preds say, I do not want that first pick, that is WAY too bizarre. :retard

At most, I think the best way would be 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 1-12, 1-12 (something to that effect). Otherwise you are getting way to involved in the value of these picks and predetermining value, etc. Too much thought and the soup will get spoiled and this will be getting off on the wrong foot.

I really want to staff a DS using rookies year one, so let's keep it simple if we are going to do it. Can we "bother" the teams that have not yet voted. I saw some of them came on line yesterday (at least) without voting. We might just be wasting our time with all this talk if they vote for the "All vets option."

[randilover]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Lots of cutting and pasting going on!!

He just doens't work... ;)

[Philadelphia Freedom]

After looking at Brian’s post I updated the Excel sheet to show the right values. In this case the average per team is 4313 and here are the individual values (assuming Team 1 has pick 1.1 and Team 12 has pick 1.12) which are shockingly well distributed around that average:

Team 1: 4370
Team 2: 4250
Team 3: 4346
Team 4: 4255
Team 5: 4210
Team 6: 4295
Team 7: 4320
Team 8: 4340
Team 9: 4310
Team 10: 4332
Team 11: 4350
Team 12: 4380

Using the chart (for what it is worth to even each teams value) here is each teams picks:

Team 1: 4370
1.01-3000
5.03-380
6.03-265
6.04-260
6.07-245
6.12-220

Team 2: 4250
1.02-2600
3.06-600
5.11-300
6.02-270
6.05-255
6.11-225

Team 3 :4346
1.03-2200
2.10-780
3.10-550
5.10-310
6.01-276
6.10-230

Team 4: 4255
1.04-1800
2.09-800
3.03-660
4.09-440
5.09-320
6.09-235

Team 5: 4210
1.05-1700
2.08-850
3.04-640
4.08-450
5.08-330
6.08-240

Team 6: 4295
1.06-1600
2.07-875
3.07-590
4.07-460
4.10-430
5.07-340

Team 7: 4320
1.07-1500
2.06-900
2.11-740
3.08-580
5.06-350
6.06-250

Team 8: 4340
1.08-1400
2.05-950
3.05-620
3.12-530
4.05-480
5.05-360

Team 9: 4310
1.09-1350
2.04-1000
3.09-560
3.11-540
4.04-490
5.04-370

Team 10: 4332
1.10-1300
2.03-1050
2.12-720
4.03-500
4.06-470
5.12-292

Team 11: 4350
1.11-1250
2.02-1100
3.02-680
4.02-510
4.11-420
5.02-390

Team 12: 4380
1.12-1200
2.01-1150
3.01-700
4.01-520
4.12-410
5.01-400

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

After looking at Brian’s post I updated the Excel sheet to show the right values. In this case the average per team is 4313 and here are the individual values (assuming Team 1 has pick 1.1 and Team 12 has pick 1.12) which are shockingly well distributed around that average:

Team 1: 4370
Team 2: 4250
Team 3: 4346
Team 4: 4255
Team 5: 4210
Team 6: 4295
Team 7: 4320
Team 8: 4340
Team 9: 4310
Team 10: 4332
Team 11: 4350
Team 12: 4380

Using the chart (for what it is worth to even each teams value) here is each teams picks:

Team 1: 4370
1.01-3000
5.03-380
6.03-265
6.04-260
6.07-245
6.12-220

Team 2: 4250
1.02-2600
3.06-600
5.11-300
6.02-270
6.05-255
6.11-225

Team 3 :4346
1.03-2200
2.10-780
3.10-550
5.10-310
6.01-276
6.10-230

Team 4: 4255
1.04-1800
2.09-800
3.03-660
4.09-440
5.09-320
6.09-235

Team 5: 4210
1.05-1700
2.08-850
3.04-640
4.08-450
5.08-330
6.08-240

Team 6: 4295
1.06-1600
2.07-875
3.07-590
4.07-460
4.10-430
5.07-340

Team 7: 4320
1.07-1500
2.06-900
2.11-740
3.08-580
5.06-350
6.06-250

Team 8: 4340
1.08-1400
2.05-950
3.05-620
3.12-530
4.05-480
5.05-360

Team 9: 4310
1.09-1350
2.04-1000
3.09-560
3.11-540
4.04-490
5.04-370

Team 10: 4332
1.10-1300
2.03-1050
2.12-720
4.03-500
4.06-470
5.12-292

Team 11: 4350
1.11-1250
2.02-1100
3.02-680
4.02-510
4.11-420
5.02-390

Team 12: 4380
1.12-1200
2.01-1150
3.01-700
4.01-520
4.12-410
5.01-400

I like the effort, but I just can't agree with the results. Just look at the 1st 3 picks. Lets assume the top 3 backs go to relatively similar situations. All could most likely be the top three picks, and have similar value. Whoever picks first doesn't get to pick again until the 5th. Whoever picks second gets to pick again in round three AND the 5th. And whoever gets the 3rd pick gets a 2nd, 3rd and 5th round pick. I just don't think there is that much difference (there is a difference) in the first three picks. Is there anyone (even Mike) that would rather have the 1st in this situation rather than the 2nd and/or 3rd pick?

[randilover]

Originally Posted by Nittany Dodgers

I like the effort, but I just can't agree with the results. Just look at the 1st 3 picks. Lets assume the top 3 backs go to relatively similar situations. All could most likely be the top three picks, and have similar value. Whoever picks first doesn't get to pick again until the 5th. Whoever picks second gets to pick again in round three AND the 5th. And whoever gets the 3rd pick gets a 2nd, 3rd and 5th round pick. I just don't think there is that much difference (there is a difference) in the first three picks. Is there anyone (even Mike) that would rather have the 1st in this situation rather than the 2nd and/or 3rd pick?

Exactly, there's no way I would want one of those first three picks in this scenario. Ever. There is so much more strategy in rookies than having the first pick. Why assume you want a RB with the first three picks (as most seem to do). I know the common strategies, but this is going too far. I do not understand what the problem with a random generator would be. It is as fair as any other way of drafting. If you are picking 12th, granted you will probably not a get a starter (and you might with IDP's), but using your head you could get 2 players (pick 12 and 13) that will be stars in the NFL.

Any word on the outstanding votes?!? I am repeating myself, but we are arguing moot points if they go for the vet route.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I don't care what order we go with as long as there is a rookie draft. If people are more comfortable with 1-12 and then 12-1 the rest of the way or some other variation that is fine by me.

I was just trying to get as close to equal for all 12 teams as possible. Clearly some folks would prefer a certain slot over another and I assume that would be the same no matter what order we settle on.

[randilover]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

I don't care what order we go with as long as there is a rookie draft. If people are more comfortable with 1-12 and then 12-1 the rest of the way or some other variation that is fine by me.

I was just trying to get as close to equal for all 12 teams as possible. Clearly some folks would prefer a certain slot over another and I assume that would be the same no matter what order we settle on.

Noble of you. I appreciate the effort. I think we get closest to fair with the 1-12, 12-1 method.

Seems like most people are for a seperate rookie draft.

Assuming we go with a 1-12,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1 format that would be OK with me.

I am guessing we will use a random draft order of someform. I am not sure I approve of keepers getting the best of two spots...kind of shady to me.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

I don't care what order we go with as long as there is a rookie draft. If people are more comfortable with 1-12 and then 12-1 the rest of the way or some other variation that is fine by me.

I was just trying to get as close to equal for all 12 teams as possible. Clearly some folks would prefer a certain slot over another and I assume that would be the same no matter what order we settle on.

'ppreciate all the work.
Face it, it doesn't matter what you say, you will not change Preds' mind. Don't waste your time. Just like there is no chance he will change yours.
I say, it's not the "fairest" but if rookie separation is picked, I say either standard serpentine or the adapted 1-12, 12-1, 12-1, 12-1, etc. This way, those who feel #1,2&3 get SO much better picks, they don't get as good a depth. I think that's good.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

Seems like most people are for a seperate rookie draft.

Assuming we go with a 1-12,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1 format that would be OK with me.

I am guessing we will use a random draft order of someform. I am not sure I approve of keepers getting the best of two spots...kind of shady to me.

It could have been yours, Skippy, but you didn't speak up. I'm surprised, too, with you always looking for the best angle .

[The Immortal Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle

Seems like most people are for a seperate rookie draft.

Assuming we go with a 1-12,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1 format that would be OK with me.

I am guessing we will use a random draft order of someform. I am not sure I approve of keepers getting the best of two spots...kind of shady to me.

Does this mean you are requesting Preds to change your vote over, so we can end this constant drivel of a debate...

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I am guessing we will use a random draft order of someform. I am not sure I approve of keepers getting the best of two spots...kind of shady to me.

Can't see how it would be shady since it was offered to anyone who voted "no" in an open forum..

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Clearly some folks would prefer a certain slot over another and I assume that would be the same no matter what order we settle on.

Ah, the crux of the problem. Hopefully, whatever method is selected, and whatever spot people get assigned, people will be able to trade to a spot they are satisfied with.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Looks like we added another voter meaning that we have 2 outstanding votes to be cast (unless one side can swing someone over):

Originally Posted by Skippy the One Eyed Beagle
Seems like most people are for a seperate rookie draft.

Assuming we go with a 1-12,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1,12-1 format that would be OK with me.

If this counts then maybe we can move on to the random order generation. If not, I agree that we are just tilting windmills at this point.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

waiting to hear back from Skippy.

[randilover]

Originally Posted by The Immortal Ramirez

Does this mean you are requesting Preds to change your vote over, so we can end this constant drivel of a debate...

Speaking of ending it, I am new at this, is there a way we can we "prompt" Vaencia and Insects to vote?!?

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

Looks like we added another voter meaning that we have 2 outstanding votes to be cast (unless one side can swing someone over):



If this counts then maybe we can move on to the random order generation. If not, I agree that we are just tilting windmills at this point.

My vote is currently one of the ones against it.

I will swing it over to wrap things up.

[The Immortal Ramirez]

:thankyou :clap :thumbsup :IconDrink :drink :notworthy :toast: :drinktoge :bow yeah!