Derby Cars and Predators negotiate MONSTER trade

[Nittany Dodgers]

Originally Posted by Bay Area Bloodsucking Insects

We need to come otgether seeing as the rules committee would shoot each other.

The assassination plot has already been set in motion. Watch your back, Mike!

[Urza's Ragers]

Originally Posted by Royal Hawaiian Opihi

By the way, Ragers win the #200 post prize... you get to decline your next RFA tender and receive Ron Dayne as compensation! :clap

Woohoo....!!! I won something!!!!!!!!!

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

Originally Posted by Urza's Ragers

Woohoo....!!! I won something!!!!!!!!!

A bag of peanuts maybe, definitely not a division championship though.

[Preds]

Here's a voting thread http://predsff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6324

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

Originally Posted by Bay Area Bloodsucking Insects

What about what Mike said about other teams still having the chance to bid over that lower price (thus creating a bidding war, until the market sets it's price)?

Alright for the last time once the bidding team has outbid the other 10 teams the only 2 teams left to determine the market price is the tendering team and the bidding team. Market price is determined when TWELVE teams are involved, not 11 not 10. Why's that so hard to understand?

Team A values player RFA X at 1500
Team B values player RFA X at 1450 (tendering team)
The rest of the league values player X at 1000

In your world the player's market price is 1001. In reality the market price should be 1451.

Originally Posted by Bay Area Bloodsucking Insects

Also did you use the wrong word or maybe you're just thinking along the same lines as us the whole time? "I've already gone over why it might be more favorable for a team to go with the lower price and use compensation to make up the difference rather than paying the max price."

So you're really with us Joe?

Trading players for decline is making up compensation.

If so then you just differ in the argument that the market doesn't set the price. Correect?

No, I dont agree with you. I was using that example to show what would happen when trading the right to match is allowed. Compensation would be used to make up the difference between 1451 and 1001 in the above example.

[Flaxwless]

OK.

And like i said before... it all goes back to our definitions.

You view it as market value.
We view it as compensation.

Just want to clarify.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers

Alright for the last time once the bidding team has outbid the other 10 teams the only 2 teams left to determine the market price is the tendering team and the bidding team. Market price is determined when TWELVE teams are involved, not 11 not 10. Why's that so hard to understand?

Team A values player RFA X at 1500
Team B values player RFA X at 1450 (tendering team)
The rest of the league values player X at 1000

In your world the player's market price is 1001. In reality the market price should be 1451.


No, I dont agree with you. I was using that example to show what would happen when trading the right to match is allowed. Compensation would be used to make up the difference between 1451 and 1001 in the above example.

And I'll throw out there how can you be so sure the rst of the 10 teams are out? You can't. Nobody has a complete handle on the market. It's not just 2 teams negotiating and 10 totally out, it's 2 teams negotiating and hoping the other players stay out. You have no control over whether someone jumps back in, you can't say with 100% certainty that another tea won't re-enter the fray (which happens all the time by the way).

Your argument is majorly flawed IMO.

[Flaxwless]

Originally Posted by Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers

Alright for the last time once the bidding team has outbid the other 10 teams the only 2 teams left to determine the market price is the tendering team and the bidding team. Market price is determined when TWELVE teams are involved, not 11 not 10. Why's that so hard to understand?

Team A values player RFA X at 1500
Team B values player RFA X at 1450 (tendering team)
The rest of the league values player X at 1000

In your world the player's market price is 1001. In reality the market price should be 1451.


No, I dont agree with you. I was using that example to show what would happen when trading the right to match is allowed. Compensation would be used to make up the difference between 1451 and 1001 in the above example.

Maybe if you view the trade form a different frame of mind Joe?

B/c as our definitions are set... MIke and I think the market is the 11 teams bididng for the services (setting cb price, so yes 1001 would be our market price) and you view it as all 12 teams (the cb price + players traded in right to decline).

B/c our issue from that standpoint is the definition of "market"

What if you think about the decline as... the tendeirng team "matching" the low ball offer THAN trading the "matched" player for comp pick + player/picks?

If you think about it from that perspective, what you are saying seems to have no basis. Which is where Mike and I are coming from. If you can't see it from that point of view, then we're at a stale mate and we'd have to convince the others which is correct.... decline as part of market value (your stance) or as part of compensation (mike and me).

Also I would like to see what the rest of the league thinks the "market" is?

Is it ALL 12 teams like Joe mentioned?
Or 11 teams minus the tendering team?

My guess is most would deem it to be 11?

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

Originally Posted by Preds

And I'll throw out there how can you be so sure the rst of the 10 teams are out? You can't. Nobody has a complete handle on the market. It's not just 2 teams negotiating and 10 totally out, it's 2 teams negotiating and hoping the other players stay out. You have no control over whether someone jumps back in, you can't say with 100% certainty that another tea won't re-enter the fray (which happens all the time by the way).

Your argument is majorly flawed IMO.

Are you telling me that there have never been situations where you think to yourself, "WHOA! That player is way overpriced but those two teams still keep bidding him up!" It only takes 2 people bidding against each other to drive up the market price. Just because that market price doesnt match with your own price doesnt mean that those two teams arent setting the market. Like I said, it only takes 2 teams bidding against each other to set the market. What the other 10 teams feel is irrelevant at that point. If you allow trading compensation to take the place of CBs then you'll have a lower than value market price, plain and simple.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers

Are you telling me that there have never been situations where you think to yourself, "WHOA! That player is way overpriced but those two teams still keep bidding him up!" It only takes 2 people bidding against each other to drive up the market price. Just because that market price doesnt match with your own price doesnt mean that those two teams arent setting the market. Like I said, it only takes 2 teams bidding against each other to set the market. What the other 10 teams feel is irrelevant at that point. If you allow trading compensation to take the place of CBs then you'll have a lower than value market price, plain and simple.

See but your argument is flawed in that the tendering team cannot be one of those 2 bidding teams.

In order to have a bidding war, your high bidder would have to be outbid by a 3rd team, which then makes the whole point of negotiating a price with the tendering team moot.

[Flaxwless]

It doesn't take the place of CBs b/c the team still has to win the bid.... which would be up to the judgement of the rest of the league if that cb price were high enough.

Simple. Yes.

In your example... all otehr bidding teams are involved even though only two are bidding. It just says the other 9 believe the price is too high.

[Brain Dead Squirrel Chasers]

Originally Posted by Preds

See but your argument is flawed in that the tendering team cannot be one of those 2 bidding teams.

In order to have a bidding war, your high bidder would have to be outbid by a 3rd team, which then makes the whole point of negotiating a price with the tendering team moot.

If you dont allow trading of the right to match then the bidding team must bid the higher than what he thinks the tendering team's price is. Thus they should be their highest price regardless of what the other 10 owners do.

If you allow this type of trading the bidding team only has to bid high enough to beat out the other 10 owners and then trade the difference in the contract and the tendering team's price.

Please note that this above scenario only applies when the bidding team and tendering team's value are relatively higher than the other 10 teams. This is the only time this situation would result in a meaningful difference in market price and contract price. For most other situations this would be a non factor.