2015 Rookie Bonues

[Burt the Butcher]

Anyone want to volunteer to calculate rookie bonuses for this year for me?

[Bounty Hunter]

I'm on it Burt.

[Burt the Butcher]

Thanks Bobby!

[Bounty Hunter]

Here are the Rookie Bonuses earned for the 2014 season. Please check your players to assure they are correct.

PLAYER POS TEAM RANK DRAFT RD BONUS
Cyprien, Johnathan DB Clowns 11 4 50
Ogletree, Alec LB Clowns 12 3 102
Evans, Mike WR Clowns 12 1 400
Landry, Jarvis WR Clowns 35 3 33
Hilton, T.Y. WR Conundrum 10 6 69 exceeded max
Cobb, Randal WR Conundrum 9 2 400 exceeded max
Sanu, Mohammed WR Cowboys 31 2 42
Worrilow, Paul LB Floyds 7 5 58
Wilson, Russel QB Floyds 5 4 100
Matthews, Jordan WR Floyds 27 1 100
Ansa, Ezeiel DL Geeks 20 3 68
Smith, Tevin LB Geeks 21 3 68
Ingram, Mark RB Geeks 15 1 400
Donald, Aaron DL Gunslingers 17 4 50
Mosley, CJ LB Gunslingers 6 2 231
Tannehill, Ryan QB Gunslingers 8 2 167
Bernard Giovini RB Gunslingers 18 1 320
Watkins, Sammy WR Gunslingers 25 1 200
Collins Jamie LB Hunters 8 6 7 Exceeded max
Jeffery, Alshon WR Hunters 11 1 400
Smith, Torrey WR Hunters 26 1 100
Williams, Andre RB Knockers 21 2 200
Hopkins, DeAndre WR Knockers 14 1 400
Miller, Lamar RB Mutts 11 1 400
Hill, Jeremy RB Mutts 10 2 405
Lacy, Eddie RB Mutts 6 1 480
Luck Andrew QB Scorpions 1 1 600
Benjamin, Kelvin WR Scorpions 16 1 300
Ellington, Andre RB Shiners 19 3 200
David, Lovante LB Swords 3 3 75 exceeded max
Fleener, Coby TE Swords 6 1 200
Beckham, Odell WR Swords 5 1 600

[Burt the Butcher]

Hey Bobby. I have not gone through all of the players here, but for Robert Quinn, his bonus should be zero.
His 2014 salary is 521cb. Add 10% increase for 2015 brings his salary to 565cb. He was drafted in 4th round, so his max salary for bonuses would be 300cb. So he is already above the max, and should not get a bonus.

Maybe need to check the rest.

[Burt the Butcher]

Cobb's bonus should be 400cb, which would take him to max salary of 1512cb...so yah, seems your numbers are off.

[Bounty Hunter]

Ok I made changes to my screw ups and posted a new list. Seems I can't calculate very well when players exceed their max salary. I even saved a few bucks on one of my players.

[Burt the Butcher]

Two things:

Mark Ingram not under contract - declared RFA

Jaime Collins - 6th round max is 160cb..current salary is 121cb. rank of 8th = 32cb increase to 153cb - so still under max

[Liquid Swords]

Two RBs are missing from rookie bonuses:

RB Demarco Murray, PHI (Hunters) - #1 RB - 2nd Round - 840cbs bonus
RB Le'Veon Bell, PIT (Floyds) - #2 RB - 1st Round - 720cbs bonus

[Burt the Butcher]

I reneged Bell prior to 2014 season, so 2014 was his last year under rookie contract:

http://www.predsff.com/forums/showth...ight=Le%27Veon

Likewise, Murray was renegged prior to 2014 season, so that would have been his last year under rookie contract:
http://www.predsff.com/forums/showth...hlight=demarco

[Liquid Swords]

Three WRs are missing from rookie bonuses:

WR Julio Jones, ATL (Moonshiners) - #8 WR - 1st round - 500cbs bonus (149 applied to max out at 1800cbs)
WR Golden Tate, DET (Cowboys) - #13 WR - 1st round - 400cbs bonus
WR Reuben Randle, NYG (Scorpions) - #36 WR - 2nd round - 42cbs bonus

[Liquid Swords]

Burt, I thought we'd discussed this situation a few years ago and determined that we would go a 5 years or until salary maxed out in order to prevent someone from signing to 2 years and then renegotiating after initial year to avoid rookie bonuses. That's how I've always looked at rookie bonuses.

Here's the initial discussion on it: http://predsff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15276

[Liquid Swords]

Also refer to post #6 in the discussion thread which states:

"Since the wording is, the contract can be 'extended' I think the intent of the rule was if the player was renegotiated, the rookie bonus should still apply until the reach the max level."

[Burt the Butcher]

Yah, seemed we were heading that way - I completely forgot about...but it was never put up for a vote, so no decision was really made. I get the extended part, but the rule also states "performance each year of their original rookie contract." That can be taken either way.

Not sure I see anything that implies a 5 year cap on bonuses.

Has this been done in the past? If we had implemented bonuses on renegotiated players, then we should continue. If not, I think we can't just implement it without a vote.

But I am definitely biased. It will definitely put a different spin on my RFA plans to take on close to 1K more in salary.

[Bounty Hunter]

When I figured those Rookie Bonuses they got the bonus the year they were reneged. My thinking is when they are reneged they are no longer under their original contract so no bonus is applied.

I reneged D.Murray at the end of the 2013 season and he got a bonus based on his year 2013 performance. Once I reneged him he was no longer under his original contract.

[Liquid Swords]

I really noticed it this year with the postings I've made of top performers who were renegotiated this season and last season. It just really sticks out when you have the #1 and #2 RB who were drafted in 2013 and 2011 respectively.

I still say they are deserving of these rookie bonuses and I believe almost everyone at time of that discussion was too.

[Liquid Swords]

One TE is missing from rookie bonuses:

TE Travis Kelce, KC (Tommyknockers) - #7 TE - 3rd round - 136cbs

[Burt the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

I really noticed it this year with the postings I've made of top performers who were renegotiated this season and last season. It just really sticks out when you have the #1 and #2 RB who were drafted in 2013 and 2011 respectively.

I still say they are deserving of these rookie bonuses and I believe almost everyone at time of that discussion was too.

Well, Frank had most of the comments, and he is no longer here. You agreed with Frank, and other than you, Bobby, Bryan and myself commented. So does not seem to be a consensus. I was in agreement at the time, but since no vote was taken, I went in this direction. I really think a vote would be necessary to make this change, but like I said, since I am involved, I really do not want to just make a ruling on it.

Would you consent to my taking it to Jim and Mike and see what they think? I would also like to get Matt to chime in, since he is also on the Rules committee.

This would really make a huge impact on both Bobby and my team, and if this had been made more clear that we were taking this direction, both players would have been given a 5 year deal. So really, we do this, we would not only have to take on 700-800 additional salary, but we also are taking on the extra 300 in reneg additions.

[Bounty Hunter]

Just to clarify, I've done the bonuses the last 3/4 years and no player was given a bonus following the year they were reneged.

[Liquid Swords]

Consider this. Had I gone with your thinking I would have renegotiated WR Odell Beckham to 5 years for 300cbs and avoided the 600cbs rookie bonus.

I don't see how we can allow that to happen. Sorry to be a pain in the arse but that's a huge hole that can be manipulated and had I (and others) interpreted it the way you are my strategies in past years would have been different to avoid known rookie bonuses with a simple 300cbs renegotiation.

Like I said Bobby, it really became clear with the #1 and #2 RBs this year. I've done spot checks in the past (always on my team) and a few that didn't seen quite right. This got me to really look into each and every one this year.

[Liquid Swords]

Here are just some examples from this off-season where teams could have gamed the system without applying rookie bonuses for 5 years or until max reached:

Gunslingers could have reneged Gio Bernard for 300cbs and saved 20cbs plus no longer be subject to rookie bonuses

Hunters could have reneged Alshon Jeffery for 300cbs and saved 100cbs plus no longer be subject to rookie bonuses

Hell Mutts could have reneged Eddie Lacy for 300cbs and saved 180cbs and reneged Lamar Miller and saved 100cbs plus no longer be subject to rookie bonuses on both players

Scorpions could have reneged Andrew Luck for 300cbs and saved 300cbs plus no longer be subject to rookie bonuses

Tommyknockers could have reneged DeAndre Hopkins for 300cbs and saved 100cbs plus no longer be subject to rookie bonuses

[Burt the Butcher]

The difference with your examples are those players all had 5 year initial contracts, so they still would have gotten rookie bonuses for the length of original contract.

Regardless, I asked both Mike and Jim their opinion..both agreed with that the spirit of the rule was just as you stated Pat. Here is what Mike said:

" So basically it's a question of reneg's on rookies who don't play out their rookie contract.

I can tell you that the intent when we integrated the CDL reneg rules in with the Frenzy rules and rookie bonuses was that the rookie bonuses would stick for 5 years frm draft date, even in the event of a reneg. The only way they're weren't supposed to apply would be in the event of a player being released and becoming a UFA. The point of that was to avoid the scenario brought up where teams could avoid rookie bonuses by giving shorter contracts and renegotiating.

I think this is a pretty slam dunk case that the rookie bonuses should apply."

And since he pretty much wrote the rule book, I guess we need to go with that.

But what to do about Murray and Bell? Since we did not really think the discussion came to a consensus conclusion, are we to be penalized for our decision based on what the rule states? And do we now have to go back over the past 5 years to check to make sure no bonuses were missed?

Honestly, I not only gave Bell shorter contract, I also did the same with Stacy, Shazier and Bucannon. Are we just screwed now and have to eat the extra 300 to renegotiate? Should we be allowed to retro fit their contract to the assumed 5 years? What would that do to cap? Its a big mess is all I can say.

Ideas? My RFA bidding is impacted by this for sure, as I am sure Bobby's is. Not really sure as to the solution on this one.

[Liquid Swords]

If we missed a prior year's rookie bonus, it's too late to go back and adjust it. And as Bobby stated, if he saw a reneg, he didn't apply rookie bonuses in the past which means that most likely the original contract years were never accounted for. Also take the reneg on Demarco in 2013. He had 2 years left on his original contract so 2013 (one year) and 2014 (last year...this year) would still be considered under the original contract, no?

[Liquid Swords]

You could also look at it as everyone else being impacted as well since Bell and Murray would be extremely undervalued, no?

[Philadelphia Freedom]

I would agree with Pat here:
"I thought we'd discussed this situation a few years ago and determined that we would go a 5 years or until salary maxed out in order to prevent someone from signing to 2 years and then renegotiating after initial year to avoid rookie bonuses. That's how I've always looked at rookie bonuses."

This was my understanding as well.

[Bounty Hunter]

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Freedom

I would agree with Pat here:
"I thought we'd discussed this situation a few years ago and determined that we would go a 5 years or until salary maxed out in order to prevent someone from signing to 2 years and then renegotiating after initial year to avoid rookie bonuses. That's how I've always looked at rookie bonuses."

This was my understanding as well.

Just for clarification, are you thinking if we assign a rookie to a 3 or 4 year contract he gets rookie bonus for 5 years?

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Correct, otherwise we could try and give short contracts to players. For example we could make all the top picks 2 year deals and the just reneg them to five year deals in their rookie season and get out from under the rookie bonus possibilities. My understanding was that rookies received bonuses for up to 5 years (or until they hit the max salary for their position).

[Liquid Swords]

If you sign a rookie to a 3 or 4 year contract and then renegotiate at a later date, then the player would still be subject to the rookie bonus for up to 5 years (or until they hit the max salary for their position).

However, once that player hits Free Agency (RFA, UFA), then any future rookie bonuses would be dropped. So if you signed a rookie to 3 or 4 years and drop the player (and no one claims him) or you do not renegotiate the contract and the player goes into RFA/UFA, then the rookie bonuses do not apply since he was acquired via free agency.

[Preds]

Originally Posted by Liquid Swords

If you sign a rookie to a 3 or 4 year contract and then renegotiate at a later date, then the player would still be subject to the rookie bonus for up to 5 years (or until they hit the max salary for their position).

However, once that player hits Free Agency (RFA, UFA), then any future rookie bonuses would be dropped. So if you signed a rookie to 3 or 4 years and drop the player (and no one claims him) or you do not renegotiate the contract and the player goes into RFA/UFA, then the rookie bonuses do not apply since he was acquired via free agency.

This is exactly how it's supposed to work.

Now how to handle the situation at hand, I could agree with Jim's suggestion via PM that you void the renegs as if they never happened and allow the involved players to be assigned the original 5 year rookie deals. Then apply bonuses as applicable since their rookie year to bring their salaries to where they should be since drafted.

The only thing to be careful of there is whether teams had enough contract years to accommodate the max 5 years when the rookies were drafted. If not you have an even bigger problem.

If the contract years cap is not an issue then I'd side with Jim's idea. If the contract years are an issue however, then I'd suggest the rookie bonuses get applied since draft year on all rookies who were reneged and the teams involved just have to suck it up.

Unfortunately there is no easy solution here, but I think it was a pretty clear violation of the spirit and intent of the rules to assign shorter deals and then reneg to get away from the rookie bonuses.

[Burt the Butcher]

OK, let's not muddy the waters trying to go back and figure out who should have gotten 5 year deals and who shouldn't. Let's just move on, us shady characters will take our lumps and lesson learned. I will add in the above Bonuses that Pat pointed out, unless anyone see's an error.

And moving on, to make the job easier for the person, Bobby or whoever does it in future, to add in bonuses, Pat if you are not already doing it, keep the rookie draft year and position attached to the player for the full 5 years, in the App. Looks like you probably already do that. So 2015 App should not show any rookie status from players drafted in 2010 and before.

So unless a player is cut and clears waivers, it is agreed, they will get bonuses for the first 5 years they are under any type of contract.